Honestly, I think KL also flew a bit under the radar for a lot of its long run. Maybe not being the type of pop cultural sensations Dallas and Dynasty were at their peaks was a benefit to KL in the long run. It managed to cultivate a loyal following who supported and sustained it even after its commercial peak vs. the type of massive collapse Dallas and Dynasty experienced after their unimaginable ratings peaks. 

 

4 hours ago, Chris 2 said:

As someone who worked for one of the industry trades early in my career, I can tell you that executives were likely not comparing Dallas’s performance to one specific CBS show (i.e. “losing out to “Murder She Wrote” as CBS’ highest rated series”) as much as they were looking at the year-over-year performance of “Dallas” itself, relative to the entire network.

”Dallas” lost 10% of its audience from the 1984-85 season to the 1985-86 season. And the drop was even worse just looking at the early 1986 episodes, when the ratings just collapsed and the show fell out of the top 10. And in fairness to Lorimar and CBS, they did act, ousting the show’s creative team and bringing back Patrick Duffy and some of the creative team from 84-85.

The problem was that Dallas needed to go forward, not backward. What kept Knots Landing fresh was continually bringing in fresh talent both in front of and behind the camera over the years. Dallas didn’t do that well.

I tend to agree. Bobby's "death" in the cliffhanger episode "Swan Song" peaked at 31.1 HH. When he returned the follow season in the episode "Blast from the past" it peaked at 26.2. The premiere episode the following season(86-87) "Return to Camelot" peaked at 27.1 HH but that occurred in the second half of the two hour premiere. So the people tuning out because it was a dream was hogwash.  Dallas started to become stale with the same storylines and as you point out no new fresh characters or storylines. I did like Sue Ellen story with Mandy but everything was just blah. Again, in 1988 JR vs Sue Ellen carried the show because nothing else was interesting. Ray and Jenna together were zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

1989-1991 didn't have one good storyline. The show was pretty much finished in 1990.

Let me add I did enjoy Miss Ellie story with Wes Parmalee in 86-87. Btw the highest rated episode that season was Bobby and Pam wedding at Southfork.

Here's a serious question: If they had pivoted for real, and made the show about J.R. vs. Pam (as originally planned by David Jacobs going back to the miniseries) after Bobby died and leaned harder into it as opposed to whatever other mess they introduced that season, would it have made a positive change for the show or would it have simply cut the show's lifeline by a few seasons? I always figured the inertia of the popularity of Hagman, Duffy, etc. are all that kept it going in the last few years.

To me, from what I've seen, Dallas never really evolved and that is what doomed it creatively. OTOH it ran the same amount of seasons as KL, so what do I know.

Edited September 12, 20241 yr by Vee

Another Dallas reunion except this time it is in Texas at Southfork!

I'm tempted!!

 

8 hours ago, Chris 2 said:

The problem was that Dallas needed to go forward, not backward. What kept Knots Landing fresh was continually bringing in fresh talent both in front of and behind the camera over the years. Dallas didn’t do that well.

I agree.

Dallas suddenly became a flash in the pan with the whole "Who Shot J.R." hoopla. People who had not watched the show jumped on board by then. The show started to decline after a few seasons which Victoria Principal has pointed out and she started to make plans to leave.

1978-1985 were the best years of Dallas in my opinion. Everything after was Meh. 1987-1991 they were scraping the bottom of the barrel to keep the show going. 

Here's a unpopular opinion of mine....I preferred the kid that played Christopher (Eric Farlow) to the recast. Some people slam him as ugly etc..., but he had more personality and chemistry with VP & PD than Joshua Harris. 

I found this hilarious post on Telly Talk I thought I would share.

The switch to Joshua Harris in 1985 was much more problematic. Despite Victoria's assertions that her Eric Farlow was "my fat ugly baby," Baby Christopher was adorable... It's not that I didn't like Joshua Harris -- I did. But they were so obviously two different children that it was laughable. Eric Farlow was maybe three or four years old and responded beautifully to Victoria and the other actors, while Joshua Harris was clearly 17 years old from his very first episode.

 🤣

I remember Joshua Harris best from Twin Peaks, lol. He was fun.

3 hours ago, Vee said:

Here's a serious question: If they had pivoted for real, and made the show about J.R. vs. Pam (as originally planned by David Jacobs going back to the miniseries) after Bobby died and leaned harder into it as opposed to whatever other mess they introduced that season, would it have made a positive change for the show or would it have simply cut the show's lifeline by a few seasons?

From a creative standpoint, leaning harder into the J.R. vs. Pam conflict after Bobby's "death" would have been fantastic, giving the show a jolt in the arm at just the right moment.  CBS and Lorimar, however, would have needed to be realistic: the days of DALLAS being a ratings juggernaut and pop culture phenomenon had to come to an end sooner or later. 

38 minutes ago, Khan said:

I agree.

Me too. But Dallas was locked into a formula of JR wheeling and dealing and he had to be front and centre.

KL was more of an ensemble and the characters had more possibilities. 

We see the same problem today  on GH and Y&R with Sonny and Victor. Everyone else is compromised to keep them at the forefront.

I loved Eric Farlow as Christopher. He was as cute as a button.

Agree with Vee - they needed to lean into JR and Pam running the business. And it couldn’t just be conflict - it had to be more nuanced, with some conflicts and sometimes teaming up against an external force. But Dallas tended to be more black and white.

I also think Pam should have been widowed and in residence at Southfork instead of off in her own orbit with the Pornstache. 

Clayton should have had some additional family to liven things up. Hey - let’s bring in a stepfather for the Ewings, and he has absolutely no family around to cause any conflict. Brilliant!

Ultimately, Peter Dunne and company blew the chance to reinvent the show, resulting in audience tune out and essentially forcing CBS and Lorimar into taking the show backward, not forward. That worked for a season, but the original setup was increasingly running out of gas.

Plus, bringing in Jamie and Jack was just a total fail. Absolute dullsville.

Oh god, they stunk. Cousin relationships aren’t as high stakes as sibling ones to begin with (they would have been better off bringing in some stepsiblings via Clayton). And the casting was abysmal - someone who got fired from Three’s Company, and Dack Rambo who had no chemistry with anyone.

I always found Dack Rambo kind of schmaltzy and hammy in the same mold as Lyle Waggoner, William Shatner, and George Hamilton. Dack was also interchangeable with Ben Murphy.

Dallas made many mistakes in their writing that I felt was just plain stupid. A few examples.

Christopher not being J.R.'s son by Kristin. This would have created excellent conflict with Bobby & Pam with J.R.. Maybe kept the secret they were raising his son for years till J.R. discovers the truth.

Killing off Kristin quickly. 

Making Pam not a true Barnes. That was the whole premise of the show.

Making Bobby's death a dream. Killing KL crossovers.

I hated the way they handled Jock's death. They should have had Miss Ellie find him passed away in his sleep at Southfork. No, instead they drug out his death with the helicopter crash and search. The man was clearly sick in his last appearance and we are supposed to believe he went off on a trip ?  Then they cooked up that Wes Parmalee story to the insult of Jim Davis memory and to the insult of the audience.

Lucy's marriage to Mitch was totally blah. They married them and couldn't write for them. Leigh McCloskey always spoke like he was ready to start spouting Shakespeare any minute. Charlene just wasn't a strong actress. 

 

Agreed with all of that. But some context on Jock’s death: Jim Davis was still alive in the spring of 1981 when they were writing scripts for the 1981-82 season. They continued to write Jock in those early scripts and sent them to the hospital for Jim to read so he’d know that he had a job to come back to. He loved that job, and I thought it was very compassionate.

The idea was that Jock would be on the trip and he would be written lightly, but would be seen in phone calls between Jock and Ellie. That way it would be easy to take Jock out if Jim wasn’t available to film, without having to rip up the first half of the season completely.

I do think the helicopter crash was nonsense. Jock could have had a heart attack abroad - he had a history of heart issues.

7 hours ago, Chris 2 said:

Agreed with all of that. But some context on Jock’s death: Jim Davis was still alive in the spring of 1981 when they were writing scripts for the 1981-82 season. They continued to write Jock in those early scripts and sent them to the hospital for Jim to read so he’d know that he had a job to come back to. He loved that job, and I thought it was very compassionate.

The idea was that Jock would be on the trip and he would be written lightly, but would be seen in phone calls between Jock and Ellie. That way it would be easy to take Jock out if Jim wasn’t available to film, without having to rip up the first half of the season completely.

I do think the helicopter crash was nonsense. Jock could have had a heart attack abroad - he had a history of heart issues.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know they were already writing scripts for the following season while Jim was still alive. Yes, it would have been better if they had him pass away from heart issues abroad instead of the helicopter crash nonsense. The new kitchen appeared when he passed and his den was no longer seen.