Don't make me cut you.

Hahaha !

If with Sami it was rape and it was Kate the one near death and EJ proposed the same deal, what would it be if Sami had said no, a mere deal gone bad?

That's like a child molester saying, "You have to let me do this or I'll kill your mommy" versus, "You have to let me do this or I'll kill the monster in your closet." Doesn't quite yield the same power of coercion, and in the case of Kate, I'm not sure that sex would be EJ's tactic. It wasn't just an abuse of power over Sami, but also a crass, base, animalistic male way of sticking it to Lucas.

Uhm Todd's crimes were never swept under the rug or white washed. He was redeemed through his actions as well.

I would say when Victor JR thought he was Todd, yes everything was white washed

Uhm Todd's crimes were never swept under the rug or white washed. He was redeemed through his actions as well.

I would say when Victor JR thought he was Todd, yes everything was white washed

Oh that's not true. His murder of Guy Armitage was flat out out swept under the rug. Him kidnapping cabin full of people, threatening to kill them and then faking DID to get him out of it was white washed. He never redeemed trying to barter with Natalie's heart by kidnapping and giving her to a rapist/killer. Todd's rape was Marty was the only real crime that the show dealt with, made him pay and kept as a recurring reminder. He did plenty of ish after they realized they wanted to keep him around as a viable character that they had characters excuse, downplay or the show flat out tried to ignore

That's like a child molester saying, "You have to let me do this or I'll kill your mommy" versus, "You have to let me do this or I'll kill the monster in your closet." Doesn't quite yield the same power of coercion, and in the case of Kate, I'm not sure that sex would be EJ's tactic. It wasn't just an abuse of power over Sami, but also a crass, base, animalistic male way of sticking it to Lucas.

But the tactics and the person in peril isn't the issue here. The issue is was EJ saying he would save Lucas' life rape, and if it was then it was the actual deal he supposedly forced on her that was the rape itself. But if you take out Lucas and substitute John Black he is doing the same thing--making her this horrible deal. With John however, she would have said no, no? In which case the fact that she would have the power to say no immediately calls the issue of rape into doubt. If she could say no, physically be empowered to prevent the unwanted sexual encounter, is it then rape? It just so happens with Lucas she would of course say yes. And EJ sticking it to Lucas is completely beside the point, as is the fact that EJ the villain who the scene before shot John in cold blood is a villain without morals.

I am not saying Sami wasn't coerced into unwanted sex, I am just saying that since she had the power to tell him no deal that therefore it was not rape. What the show says is irrelevant since the show also says Daniel Jonas is the ultimate object of desire to all female patients and we know well enough to laugh at that.

Edited July 13, 201411 yr by quartermainefan

Two words: Michael Zaslow. His acting made people care for Roger. Plus, I do think that writing made people care for Roger. Especially under Curlee. We saw his faults and his regrets on a regular day basis. I've said this before and I'll say it again, Roger and Holly are the ONLY 'rapemance' I'll ship for because the writers (mainly Curlee) knew how to handle the situation/their history along with the actors performances. I couldn't hate Roger because IMO, he is one of the most complex characters in soap history. Even though you hated what he did, he was the underdog--an underdog that truly wanted acceptance, love, and respect that his foil, Ed Bauer, received.

I always found Roger infinitely watchable and fascinating but I never really rooted for him. The show never let us forget that he was the bad guy. Yes, he occasionally turned out to be not as bad as the townsfolk accused him of being but I can't think of a time when the show tried to whitewash his rape of Holly or anything else. At the same time I always saw Holly as the ultimate wackjob for the way she was constantly drawn back to him. Roger and Holly were never presented as anything other than dysfunctional.

I won't even get into Todd Manning. In hindsight I consider the whitewashing of Todd Manning to be detrimental to OLTL and to the genre as a whole. The fact that I bought into it is one of my biggest regrets as a lifelong viewer of soaps.

Lol when was Todd ever white washed? Please give examples, cause he wasn't, they never let anyone forget what he did to Marty and Nora

I will never understand how rapists Luke Spencer, Roger Thorpe, and Todd Manning ever became fan favorites among soap viewers, even with the "multi-layered" writing that later gave these characters shades of gray.

Roger was an extremely popular character for nearly a full decade before he raped anyone. He was written as a villain after he raped Rita and Holly and was killed off for another full decade. When he returned he was repentant for what he'd done.

Putting him in with Luke and Todd does GL fans a disservice IMO.

Edited July 13, 201411 yr by DRW50

Lol when was Todd ever white washed? Please give examples, cause he wasn't, they never let anyone forget what he did to Marty and Nora

- Todd loves kids!

- Todd was falsely accused of hospital rapes, because Powell is the REAL bad guy!

- Todd saved Marty's life...he's a hero!

- Todd's adoptive father was abusive...it's all HIS fault!

- Todd's biological father was a rapist...it's all HIS fault!

But the tactics and the person in peril isn't the issue here. The issue is was EJ saying he would save Lucas' life rape, and if it was then it was the actual deal he supposedly forced on her that was the rape itself. But if you take out Lucas and substitute John Black he is doing the same thing--making her this horrible deal. With John however, she would have said no, no? In which case the fact that she would have the power to say no immediately calls the issue of rape into doubt. If she could say no, physically be empowered to prevent the unwanted sexual encounter, is it then rape? It just so happens with Lucas she would of course say yes. And EJ sticking it to Lucas is completely beside the point, as is the fact that EJ the villain who the scene before shot John in cold blood is a villain without morals.

I am not saying Sami wasn't coerced into unwanted sex, I am just saying that since she had the power to tell him no deal that therefore it was not rape. What the show says is irrelevant since the show also says Daniel Jonas is the ultimate object of desire to all female patients and we know well enough to laugh at that.

But the tactics are the issue. You have acknowledged that Sami was coerced into unwanted sex. I don't know what state you live in, perhaps it's a more conservative one where the rape laws allow criminals more latitude. But in Illinois, if consent for the sexual act is arrived at through force, intimdation, or coercion, it is considered sexual assault. In the case of Sami, EJ didn't use force, but he did use intimidation and coercion and Sami was an unwilling participant. If you agree she was unwilling and was coerced, the fact is it's considered rape in Illinois. Whether you personally agree with it is not the point, that's the law. And the show has been correct from day one in treating it as such.

What I see as another issue is what seems to be the idea that rape is really just about sex. Sexual Assault, Sexual Harrassment are all crimes that are based on a need to exude power and control. Sexual harrassment for example, can occur without any physical contact and rape can occur without physical force.

Edited July 13, 201411 yr by JaneAusten

Lol when was Todd ever white washed? Please give examples, cause he wasn't, they never let anyone forget what he did to Marty and Nora

Did you even read my post? Refer back to that to the several different examples cited there for your answer

- Todd loves kids!

- Todd was falsely accused of hospital rapes, because Powell is the REAL bad guy!

- Todd saved Marty's life...he's a hero!

- Todd's adoptive father was abusive...it's all HIS fault!

- Todd's biological father was a rapist...it's all HIS fault!

Not to mention tying him to the Lords so they could always have Viki going all over town telling everyone how Todd is secretly wounded and wonderful and capable of boundless infinite love even though he's a sex offender and murderer. How about handing him a fortune so he could become one of the most important and powerful people in town?

- Todd loves kids!

- Todd was falsely accused of hospital rapes, because Powell is the REAL bad guy!

- Todd saved Marty's life...he's a hero!

- Todd's adoptive father was abusive...it's all HIS fault!

- Todd's biological father was a rapist...it's all HIS fault!

Thank you! I've had this argument countless time when I hear how wonderfully constructed Todd's redemption was when, in reality, he was a short term character that the viewers wanted to be raped by, so they found a way to keep him (same with Luke). Of course, that argument is mostly by TnB fans who still believe Roger should be with KDP.

I definitely agree on the Sami issue. She used sex to get what she wanted.

I will disagree however on Jax. Irina had him beat up, had him tied up with gun pointed at him. She didn't just threaten Carly, but the kids as well. I honestly don't think he had a choice. His attacker was threatening his life and those close to him if he didn't comply.

Its hard to imagine anyone can look at this and say there was no rape

There's absolutely no comparison with Jax/Irina, Sami/EJ. Jax was held against his will as his immediately family was threatened while Sami and EJ made a deal. EJ had nothing to do with Sami's duress. He offered his services and wanted sex in exchange. Yes, he's vile, but EJ was under no obligation to help Lucas!

Still don't understand why Guza chose that route with Jax. The only thing I can think of is that they thought it would give Carly ammo against him when he brought up her cheating. It simply was not necessary. Jax was made to repeatedly have sex with Irina for no apparent reason but to wipe away Carly's affair with Scummy.

America, please! I watched that show live that day - E.J. had a gun on her and he raped her on the passenger side of a car! I don't know if he even reclined the seat!

Why would EJ need to threaten Sami with a gun when he offered to help save Lucas in exchange for sex. You don't need both.