Empire: Discussion Thread

[ChitHappens]

There could be many interpretations to that scene but it was nonetheless powerful. I loved the honesty of it. As for your words, you were fine

[DeeeDee]

That wasn't being rude.

The fact you assumed that says more about you than me.

[xtr]

One thing I am liking about the writing for the character of Lucious, is how in spite of all of his many flaws, his sons still love him and want his approval. None of his sons hate him. Not Andre, who I think he gets along well with, not the youngest Hakeem, who reminds him a lot of himself and who he had a bonding moment with last night in the club.

Not even Jamal who he mistreats. Even Jamal loves him, calls him "Daddy", and wants to spend time with him. Many times on a family drama/soaps, there tends to be at least one kid (sometimes more) who dislikes their father/is plotting to take him down.But that's not going on here. I find that refreshing. All of the sons, even Andre the schemer, just want what he promised one of them they could have.

I appreciate that the writers aren't doing a "Which one of us gets to take down Dad first" type of storyline with Lucious and the sons. At least they aren't doing it for now, lol.

Edited January 8, 2015 by xtr

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Give it till season 2 lmao. You know the season 1 finale will involve a betrayal.

Somehow I see Jamal (who I think of as the "innocent" one) being the one who turns dark at a certain point. It would make a lot of sense given the family dynamics at play here.

I think the reason why the show is so excellent is the family relationships to be honest. Despite the tension you can feel/see the love. You can tell that the enmity between Cookie and Uncle Vernon runs deep...why I have no idea but it's so fascinating. At the same time this guy Lucius divorces the one woman who helped him start this "empire" and yet it's clear that he's still fascinated by her spirit and may even be in love with her.

[Juliajms]

I was unsure about what we were supposed to take from that scene as well. He referred to himself as a "sissy" as did Cookie, so that made me think he might be a cross dresser. Also I think they mentioned that the last guy he lived with was a cross dresser. So at first I thought maybe he had some element of transgender (forgive my ignorance of the proper terms) going on, but as the show progressed I changed my mind.

xtr:

I thought it was interesting that Lucious didn't disown Jamal. He could have done that with Cookie out of the way so long, so I'm going to assume that on some level he still loves him, even if he can't accept him at this point. The fact that he's ill might be one thing that brings him around.

[marceline]

Because that's always wild fun. LOL!

[xtr]

I could see a situation where Andre orchestrates something to make it look like either Hakeem or Jamal betrayed the other one. They seem really close and I don't know if just competiting musically/being the favorite of each parent will be enough to damage their relationship.

Also, later on I could see Jamal doing something that seems very uncharacteristic of him. Maybe he'll end up doing one bad thing that's big, or he'll mess somebody over in some way. They may not turn him very dark, but I could see them having him do something really wrong, and/or mess somebody over in some way.

I agree with you about seeing the love in the family. Lucious does seem to still love Cookie and I believe he loves all of his sons, including Jamal. The way he treats Jamal is wrong, but I am glad that it hasn't gotten to the point to where he's completely disowning him/doesn't want to even see him/talk to him. He still invites him over to the house, and talks to him (somewhat), I'm glad that their relationship isn't completely unsalvageable.

I want it to get to the point during this first season, that he will at least acknowledge/appreciate Jamal's talent. I hope that him lying to himself and others about Jamal's talent doesn't last long. I think that he will continue to not accept Jamal being gay, for a while, but maybe he will admit soon that his son is a talented musician. I think that it will be interesting to see him admit that his Jamal is very talented, even like him in some ways, and how that and other factors might cause him to struggle with his decision over who should run the company. I could see Cookie highlighting Jamal's talents enough to where it won't be as clear cut in Lucious mind, as to who should run the company,

I don't think that right now Andre has much of a chance of getting the company, but I think he's going to be do a lot of very manipulative things to try and get Empire. I am also interested in seeing how Andre/Cookie interact together, and learn more about their relationship. I want to know more about why he didn't visit his mother while she was in prison, even though he was the oldest, had the most memories of her. I can understand Hakeem to a degree, he was the baby and he didn't really know her, but I wonder what Andre's excuse was for not visiting her. Maybe he was ashamed of the situation she was in.

Edited January 8, 2015 by xtr

[Dr Neil Curtis]

Cookie = Alexis Carrington

Lucious = Blake Carrington

Hakeem = Fallon

Andre = Adam

Jamal = Steven

#LOVEIT

[ChitHappens]

That about sums it up!

[DramatistDreamer]

Just got a chance to see Empire online during my lunchbreak and I think it's a pretty good time. Good for Lee Daniels' embrace of the soap opera format, in interviews he has admitted as much, which is refreshing that he didn't try to demur when asked like Shondra Rimes has. He knows that soaps often get the most loyal fans/viewers.

I don't normally read reviews before a show debuts (okay, that's not entire true-- I TRY not to read them before a show's debut) and one review said that Lucious was missing that extra bit of psychological interest-- they mentioned the fact that Tony Soprano had to go to therapy and talked about Breaking Bad, etc.

To me, though, the psychological interest is not so much with Lucious but with Cookie.

Cookie is the one who makes things happen. That scene where she takes the broomhandle to her youngest son, Hakeem after he calls her a B*tch, to me she would match up with Tony Soprano in complexity more than Lucious. I wonder if that was how it was meant to be or is it something that organically developed? I think it may be intentional because wasn't Taraji cast first? I read somewhere that she actually was the one who requested Terrence Howard to play Lucious. I'm not 100% sure if that is true or rumor.

But to me the relationship between Cookie and her sons is far more complex and less predictable than what Lucious has with the sons, which is pretty straight-forward (no pun intended). For instance, the relationship between Cookie and Andre is very interesting. With his Ivy League education, Cookie seems impressed, proud and a bit sheepish about what effects her jail time may have had on him and he is clearly using it for his personal gain. Knowing what we know about Cookie already, we have to believe that somewhere along the line, she'll be onto Andre and his wife's agenda, if she isn't already. Will she turn the tables on Andre and will it be in time?

And of course, her unconditional love for her middle son Jamal, she seems to vacillate between Stage Mom and nurturing parent. Jamal's success seems to be critical to her but why? For Jamal? To prove something to Lucious? To prove that she can still make winners and stars?

I just feel strongly that Cookie is where all that complexity and dynamism is seated.

All I'm saying is Empire better never try to pull a Person of Interest stunt because if they ever lose Cookie/Taraji...

[ajsp35801]

I think that is because despite it all and underneath it all, Lucious loves his sons. He invited Jamal over to talk to him about his "lifestyle". He has not written him off. He cares. I think part of why he does what he does to Jamal is because he is trying to force him to do what he wants, or be who he wants, by taking his attention away. It's really the only leverage that he has. And in his mind it is for Jamal's own good. Let's be honest, life is harder on people who are "different". That doesn't conform to societal norms. Lucious wants the best for his son. That's the root of it as far as I can see.

[xtr]

I thought that was interesting too. And I think he’s still looking out for Jamal financially, just like he’s looks out for Hakeem/Andre. Even though Hakeem definitely is the most spoiled one of the bunch. Jamal has mentioned that he’s not into touring, and hasn't really been working on an album or things like that, but he still seems to be living well. I believe that Lucious is making sure that Jamal has access to money and other things so that he can live a very comfortable lifestyle. Right now Andre is probably really the only son who is legitimately earning a big paycheck, even though I believe that Lucious still gives him things as well. I do like that in spite of whatever issues Lucious has with his kids, that they are still his kids, and that he’s still looking out for them in some ways.

[DeeeDee]

+1.

[ajsp35801]

With respect to Cookie and Jamal. I think it is as simple as he needs her more. This may not be a PC thing to say but mothers do not dish out love and attention equally. I know this because I lived it. My mother has 3 daughters (no sons). My middle sister and I are far more "accomplished" and succesful than the eldest. And I sometimes think my mother tries to make up for this by doing any and everything to show her that she is as proud of her as she is of us. And she makes no apologies to me and my sister about it. It's crazy! But I digress...I think that this is what is going on with Cookie. She wants to show the world, and Lucious, that just because Jamal is gay does not mean that he is not talented or capable of running Empire. I actually think that is most of her motivation. The other part is that she wants to beat Lucious. They have a weird thing going.

So, no one took my bait about Andre? I think he suffers from some sort of mental illness and always has even as a child. Cookie was far too impressed with him graduating from college.

Edited January 8, 2015 by ajsp35801

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

I too am thinking he has some kinda illness but I hope it's nothing too crazy. I'll wait for the show to reveal it to us though.

I did love how awe struck Cookie was by her first born son...say what you will but being the first born is different than any other position. Your parents look and treat you differently and it made total sense to me how they interacted. It was kinda touching in some ways. All her hopes and aspirations are kind of represented by Andre. He's gotten to the top of the food chain in many respects and has achieved more than she could ever have dreamed of as a child. So of course she's proud but at the same time a nervous wreck because she probably doesn't think they can relate to each other.