Jump to content

Empire: Discussion Thread


Toups

Recommended Posts

  • Members

The show is not homophobic IMO. Quite the opposite. None of the gay characters are cliched caricatures or demonized! That would be homophobic writing. The central character, Jamal, is one of the most rootable characters I have seen in a while. He's fully fleshed out and he is human. It's impossible not to care about him. I think some who are homophbic that watched it will resent this. They are rooting for him and they don't like it. wink.png

That war was about race. Not sexuality.

Edited by ajsp35801
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 3.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

  • Members

He's a great actor when motivated, but I haven't seen Wesley play anything other than Blade in at least a decade. Some stories suggest the dude may actually think he is Blade at this point.

Terrence Howard, like Wesley, is insane IRL but he is also a great actor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

*gasps*

Seriously?!! I think that Wesley would've been better. More sadistic/frightening. Yes, it would've been like he was playing Nino Brown [again], but Wesley would've brought it. While I think Terrence can [and probably will] bring it, Wesley would've ate this role alive. I would actually believe he is capable of going toe to toe with Taraji.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

As good as Terence Howard is he's not as committed to Lucious as Taraji is to Cookie and it shows.

Howard's Lucious comes off like a stock character going through the motions whereas Taraji's Cookie is a highly flawed yet very realistic character one can't help but love.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Oh my! This is some tea! I didn't know that about Taraji using her accepting the role as leverage to get Terrence hired. They must be great friends and she enjoys working with. Wow. Way to flex that muscle.

I can't picture Wesley in the role. Terrence brings some compassion to the role. I can't imagine Wesley doing that. I would have hated Lucious with a passion with him in the role and longed for his death. I care about him as played by Terrence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Frankly I think Howard probably could've used the job. He aced himself out of the Marvel movies and was not getting the greatest film parts.

I think he's doing a fine job. No, it's not as visceral a part as Henson's out of the gate but he is good at what he's given.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I think Cookie is a very high energy character whereas Lucious seems designed as more of a laid back smooth kind of guy. I saw flashes of great with Terrence as well. Either way, I think that this performances might improve. In the season preview, that scene with Lucious arguing with Jamal seems like it will be a doozy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Lucious should have very clear relationships with his children but the majority of the background the audience has about how he feels about them is mainly plot dependent.

From the moment Cookie interacts with all three of their sons there's heavy subtext there (largely because of Taraji's acting).

If someone were asked to describe Lucious feelings about Andre they'd have to read from a plot summary because the brief scene they had at the gym revealed nothing of their relationship.

Contrast that to Andre's brief scene with Cookie who is clearly proud of her son's achievements, amusingly frank about his wife & hesitant because she isn't sure if he resents her for not being there.

Edited by DeeeDee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So yeah, upon viewing, I don't see anything remotely homophobic about this show. If anything it sides heavily with Jamal, and Cookie endorses that wholeheartedly the minute she arrives back on the scene. As for the audience, I think a case can be made for the majority of them being with Cookie - and that makes them be with Jamal, and they begin to reconcile that.

if it's causing an uproar among a sub-segment of the audience, good. Go for it. It's a conversation worth having. It was a surprisingly strong pilot for a show i expected to be superfcial fluff - it's still a OTT primetime soap, but it has real meat on the bone. I'm in.

As for the character relationships, I think they accomplished a lot in under an hour. We'll know more about how Lucious sees his eldest son in time, I'm sure. I got a clear take on how he sees the others.

Edited by Vee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I just watched. Wow, I absolutely loved it.

First and foremost, Taraji is my religion. This woman is perfect.

That trash can scene gutted me. Such real, emotional stuff.

Jamal is my favorite son. I already can tell I will (love to) hate Andre and his "white bitch" wife, lol.

Loved Gabby, too.

I'm really excited for Naomi Campbell and Courtney Love.

Did y'all know Raven Symone has a recurring role on this show? I cannot WAIT for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I just loved the premiere, it was everything I wanted it to be: this is the Dynasty of hip hop. The production values scream money, the writing was sharp, the language pushed the envelope and Taraji P Henson blew in guns blazing, within the first episode she has joined Alexis, Abby, Sue Ellen and Amanda as one of the most iconic women in prime time soap opera. She was incredible: the lines, the movement, the attitude, she reminded me so much of what Dynasty director Irving J Moore said of Joan Collins: "I have never seen anyone interact with props like she does, she can balance a cape, a martini glass, a cigarette, a hat and sunglasses all while walking backwards and in high heels, she knows how to move!"

The trash can scene was harrowing, heartbreaking, shocking. It was also brilliant because it said a lot about Cookie, Luscious and Jamal. It will likely inform the rest of the series.

I also think the recurring performers, namely Gabourey Sidibe, Naomi Campbell and Courtney Love, are going to be off the chain! The casting on this show is fabulous and Triple A List.

I hope the ratings can stay strong, I thoroughly enjoyed this show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Off topic, but I'm so glad that Gabby Sidibe has made such a great career for herself. So many people said she would never act again or get cast in anything mainstream, but with well received arcs on "AHS", "The Big C" and now, presumably, this show, she really has proved them wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • I'd dump Kai next week, lol.
    • I guess the true colours are shining through from J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio. Germany defends AfD extremist classification after Rubio slams 'tyranny in disguise'  
    • A few very longwinded thoughts for no one in particular after catching up most of the last two seasons of DW on Disney+. @DRW50, apologies for copypasting much of our recent discussion but there's a bit more at the end that might suit you! (And a few more expansive thoughts on Dot and Bubble/73 Yards.) Season 1/Series 14 (I'll always refer to these like that):  I cannot imagine what possessed them to open the first Disney season with Space Babies. After a promising prologue which sort of functions as a recap for new viewers on the new platform, it begins as something at first appealingly deranged if controversial right out of the Graham Williams era, then very quickly slides into one of the nadirs of 60 years of the franchise for me. Possibly worse than Jodie Whittaker's first episode, which I found to be little more than a dull bit of Canadian syndicated sci-fi from 20 years ago. Absolutely staggering this was chosen. Shades of RTD lowlights like Love & Monsters, the Slitheen 2-parter or Fear Her. OTOH: The Devil's Chord is a mix of either not great or fascinatingly weird, mystical stuff out of the Andrew Cartmel era in the late '80s. I found everything with the Beatles tedious or cheesy as well as how they defeated the villain, but Jinkx Monsoon was actually quite creepy as one of the gods of the pantheon (which made me think of the gods from the McCoy story The Greatest Show of the Galaxy). And the meta, random musical break at the end and all sorts of strange pacing and tonal bits felt very experimental - some of it appealing and unsettling, other parts just baffling. It makes you wonder what everyone BTS was dosing themselves with, at least for these two episodes.  The actors are fine, it's the material that is thunderingly insane. You can see why this first Disney season was very divisive already - it was wildly unwise to start with these two episodes - but there's still a lot more going on than the average Chibnall story. A truly, truly strange and unique time in the annals of Who. Season 1/Series 14 picks up quite a bit with Boom and 73 Yards. Boom is a fairly bog-standard Moffat episode with a bottle premise (Doctor on a land mine) but a subversive message re: corporate military. A lot of the usual twee, now quite shopworn Moffat elements are in there including a ridiculous little girl and fairly precious finish, but it's still a solid watch and a good sight better than the first two eps. (The fact that it reuses some of the plot device from The Empty Child can be somewhat forgiven as it is apparently the same imaginary weapons manufacturer Moffat made up in that episode, from the 1940s - this same corporate enemy, Villengard, reappears later in Joy to the World.) 73 Yards is excellent if often obscure, the first banger of this season but also (like Lux in S2/Series 15 a few weeks ago) one of its most metaphysical. Sort of a melange of folk horror a la the old BBC Christmas ghost stories as well as Tennant's Midnight, with elements of Turn Left and even a political thriller, and a great appearance by Sian Phillips. Its plot is deliberately very vague in places but it is easily the most compelling piece of Who I have seen since Peter Capaldi's era. Though like Turn Left it is a Doctor-lite episode. Really remarkable, at least as creepy as anything Hinchcliffe, Series 18 or the late Cartmel eps. With the same haze of doom as Inferno. Fans are still trying to puzzle it out to this day when parts of I think are designed to be opaque. Still, excellent and very, very different. The same goes for Dot and Bubble: Very, very strong S24/early McCoy vibes (in a more positive way than Space Babies) a la Paradise Towers, etc. due to its wacky social media/TikTok/VR interface premise, but with a very, very bitter aftertaste as the open secret of Finetime becomes clear. I understand this story was controversial for obvious reasons to anyone who's seen it, but I think it serves as a slap in the face and a bucket of cold water for an audience that sometimes needs it. Plot aside, Dot and Bubble is at its core a simple, remarkably nihilistic story - a Black Mirror story riff, really - about who we are and where we may well be going. The social media commentary and tools are just the lens for the message, they aren't the message itself. It sticks with you, and is easily the other standout of a very mixed season for me next to 73 Yards. (Rogue with Jonathan Groff is a fun romp but not much else, though he and Gatwa do have chemistry.) IThe Sutekh finale of S1 is not as bad as people claim - the first half is pretty good putting aside the typical RTD nonsense anagram/wordplay that doesn't quite hold together, while the second half is weaker and much more pat, but it's really just a pretty typical 2-parter conclusion with DW time travel magic, followed by the hilariously weird and stupid touch of having the Doctor foil Sutekh like Mitt Romney's dog. The reveal on Ruby's parentage is basically The Last Jedi which made people mad all over again, but it's just as well an ending for something that had a very limited window of time to play. (They probably should've dumped the subplot entirely if they wanted it to be stronger, but the payoff with Ruby's real mom does hit very hard and genuinely got me.) I've seen far worse DW finales, starting with Army of Ghosts/Doomsday or literally any Chibnall finale. Not great, but not terrible and wonderful work from Bonnie Langford (Mel should travel with Fifteen for an ep or two), as well as a very touching sendoff for Ruby and a mature approach from the Doctor who (like Whittaker's) calmly accepts what's best for her before she does and doesn't moan or weep over it. I would've loved to have more of Millie Gibson who was great, but Ruby does really feel in a way like RTD bedding the show back in with a standard-issue companion for a season before hopefully moving on to someone more complex. It feels appropriate for her to go. The latest Christmas special (Joy to the World) is quite good IMO, one of the stronger efforts of the current era. Unlike Boom, it is full of Moffatisms but they feel far less shopworn or treacly. The holiday special format makes the schmaltz more appropriate and touching. And watching Gatwa's Doctor navigate some long-form time travel/waiting around situations quite similar to ones Capaldi and Smith approached but in a very different way helps distinguish him more beyond just the actor's winning, very open performance. He remains a very emotional, evolved Doctor and that seems to be the throughline so far along with his explicit queerness. It's a good start, though I really hope he'll get the customary three series to fully blossom. Though I fear he won't. Season 2/Series 15: After the considerable upswing of Joy to the World, The Robot Revolution was a pretty brutal comedown. I found it quite dire - a very blunt force message about incels and an astonishingly nonsensical story that barely held together, feeling very rushed through the shorter Disney under 60 mins running time. It felt like a very woolly first draft of this story. It barely keeps itself together because Varada Sethu is great as Belinda and quickly winning with Gatwa, but boy could I not get out of here fast enough. First stories are rarely great ones for a new Doctor or companion but this one was rough! I did love the opening bit with Mrs. Flood as Belinda's neighbor, and Belinda telling her to tell the other neighbors their atomized cat had gone to live on a farm. Sethu has great comic timing as well as her dramatic chops - more on those below. Fortunately, Series 2 seems off to a better start overall: The Well is well-received and Lucky Day (the upcoming Ruby solo episode) seems very positively reviewed as well this weekend. I will get to them, but as of now I am only up to episode 2: Lux, with Alan Cumming as the evil cartoon Mr. Ring-a-Ding. The ongoing subplot/arc of the Gods of the Pantheon, which has recurred off and on ever since the Toymaker in the specials, is an interesting throughline for RTD to keep playing with, and feels possibly like a response to a Disney note, but it works here. (And again, seems reminiscent of when the scheming master Seventh Doctor repeatedly would face seemingly god after god from various strata of cosmic deities in his final two seasons.) Lux lives up to the hype for me: It's both very unique in execution with the evil cartoon but very experimental - at least as much as 73 Yards or Dot and Bubble - with the heavy metatextual element of the Doctor and Belinda escaping television entirely and interacting with fandom, even if their teary goodbye to them is a bit much. The episode operates entirely on avant-garde logic that it makes work for it, and then has a great, melancholy, almost Warriors' Gate/Evangelion-esque ending with Lux Imperator ascending into the cosmos. Which brings me to my larger points. You just will never find another DW ep like Lux, 73 Yards or Dot and Bubble and that's why they work so well IMO. The Disney era is quite a mixed bag so far, at times full of some of RTD's most rushed or downright woefully bad writing, but it also has him taking some of his biggest, wildest chances as an artist, things you get the sense he never felt the freedom to do in the franchise anymore and now may never get a chance again. Some of them are dreadful, some feel like tired rehashes but some are really spectacularly different and daring. Even the constant fourth wall breaks with Anita Dobson (who's chilling as Mrs. Flood) mostly work for me. Similarly: Ncuti Gatwa's Doctor is a work in progress, and hopefully not one with very little time left. Yes, Gatwa's Doctor cries a bit too much but the fact that he cries at all, and that we accept it and that rage and tantrums do not accompany it a la other Doctors, is the biggest change. Fifteen, insofar as we have gotten to begin to know him a bit (not enough yet), is the evolved, vulnerable, emotional but not self-pitying or self-mythologizing Doctor. He remains (to me at least) as open and honest and forthright, and kind, as he appeared when he first revealed himself to Fourteen in The Giggle. He is not bland and a collection of other Doctors' tics like Whittaker's Doctor, but he does feel younger - reborn, more in touch with a kind of youthful emotionalism but also a kind of innate maturity to not be egocentric or tortured, for once. This kind of naked honesty has led to accusations that Gatwa is only 'playing a normal human' or is too opaque at present, and I can understand some of the latter commentary but I don't think he is just playing a cool dude. He's just a remarkably refreshed Doctor who (in addition to being very explicitly queer onscreen) feels the healthiest that he has in ages. But does that leave much for the character to do or explore unless he suffers setbacks? That's an open issue and it remains to be seen. It's certainly never a Doctor I've seen before though. He definitely has gotten the 'therapy' he told Fourteen he had. And I do enjoy watching him. I hope this isn't the end for him due to the state of streaming - I think we have much more to learn. The key moments for Fifteen include two in Lux: The way bigotry is dealt with here is not with gurning or screams or rage as Belinda discovers she and the Doctor wouldn't normally be allowed into the segregated spaces in Miami in the '50s, but with Fifteen gently telling her with a dazzling smile that he has toppled worlds but lets them do it themselves sometimes in their own time; 'until then, I live in it and I shine.' Followed by at the end, where he calmly says that according to the laws of the land 'sunlight doesn't suit us' and it's time to go. It's not giving a pass to the era but it's not doing the adolescent thing over being trapped in the '50s either. Again, this is material that leads to accusations of Fifteen being too perfect, or too static - I think we've just rarely seen such a settled Doctor in the modern era. Whether he's too static, I think it's too soon to know. Thirteen's certainly was, and much less interesting IMO. Belinda Chandra reminds me a lot of Liz Shaw: No nonsense, a medical professional and often all business in a situation before the Doctor (so far). She's a grown woman, not a young girl on the cusp and shows it without being as comic as Donna Noble. It's a different kind of companion and one maybe needed for this Doctor. I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on her and Varada Sethu. Sorry to run so long, but if anyone else is watching do chime in sometime! I will get to The Well (a.k.a.

      Please register in order to view this content

      and Lucky Day shortly.
    • I absolutely loved the last few episodes—devoured them! If Trisha and Ambyr’s performances aren’t Emmy-worthy, I don’t know what is. I wasn’t bothered by the lawyer girl not being at the gala from the start, or the grandkids being absent, or Vanessa being MIA. It just goes to show how unnecessarily huge the Dupree family is. And like Toups said, you can’t cram the entire cast into a single episode. Oh and the cue when Leslie was having that fantasy was epic, very DAYS-like. They should keep it and develop it   Minor nitpicks: Yeah, Ted seriously needs a recast—been saying that since day one. I still don’t know where he stands, and he just comes off as a generic nice guy. Not having Ted and Bill share a single scene since the show started? Huge missed opportunity. And not having Leslie get anywhere near Bill in one of her wigs? Another big miss. It really weakened the impact of her big reveal about Bill’s involvement. Now it just feels a bit like fan fiction. I’m totally confused by Vanessa and Doug’s “arrangement.” One moment it seems like they’re in an open relationship, and the next Vanessa acts completely shocked when Doug so much as hints at her “distractions.” Huh? Can anyone explain what’s going on there?
    • You’d think he would’ve learned after the way Sprina took off.  I hope we get a proper Emma/Gio/Trina/Kai quad, as friends, romantic rivals, etc. In the few scenes that the four of them have had together, I felt like there was a natural chemistry between all of them, similar to the way that Cam/Spencer/Trina/Joss was, in the beginning.  And, it would be a lot better than all this stuff with Kai’s surgery. 
    • Hooray we made the exact same critique to Londonscribe!!!!!
    • I don't think they had any idea who he was this time last year. I think they were keeping their options very open. Same with totally dropping the Trina romance that was spoiled for him in the mags once FV clearly took a shine to him. Frank's priorities are bright and blazing in one color. I do think Gio and Emma seem to have worked out given that she is very dry and sarcastic and he is like a hot golden retriever, but I'd still play the field or explore quads with both with very different people - Emma with a scheming young man (of color), Gio with possibly Trina or someone else, or even a boy. Then maybe put them back together, who knows. But of course none that will happen.
    • Please register in order to view this content

    • Please register in order to view this content

       
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy