The Decline and Fall of the Kardashian Empire

[Cheap21]

Its just a title. Its not meant to be taken literally and the fact that none all of them are housewives doesnt take away from the show

[SFK]

Oh Khylie and Kendoll (named after Bruce) will definitely have their moments of tabloid fame. We're not rid of them that quickly.

[DRW50]

The worst part of reality shows is when they keep going even though there's nothing left for the personalities. I think some of these shows stay on too long and you end up wondering well, why doesn't ___ Housewife ever have a scene with ___. You're wondering about what you can't see instead of what you can.

It also reminds me of the Anna Nicole Show. The first season was a trainwreck, but an honest view of Anna Nicole and her many demons could be found. Apparently someone didn't like that, because the second season was so badly and clearly scripted that I couldn't make it past the first episode.

[All My Shadows]

Someone really needs to explain to me what "quality" means, because I constantly see this word being thrown around when people want to state their opinions as facts, and it annoys the sh!t out of me. It's really not that serious.

[JackPeyton]

THIS! I keep asking, nobody is offering anything though.

Thank you!

I miss The Hills too.

The legacy for those who didnt watch it and instead were quick to judge something they know nothing about, sure.

It was a show about going out and finding yourself, falling love, getting your heartbroken, making mistakes, and dealing with complicated, messy friendships and lives. It was fake/staged/scripted/real, whatever, it felt real. It was honest. And it had one of the GREATEST series finales of all time.

Originally they were. And the NYC or OC one was actually another show that got rebranded as Housewives to cash in on how well the original series did. Shoes evolve and change without changing the title. Did the fact that characters came back from the dead and essentially live another life on One Life To Live take away from the title of the show? Or the fact that All My Children was not about one persons many children? Or that Y&R has not so young people on take away from the show?

Exactly.

Reality tv is not met to be viewed as a documentary series. Its not 100% true to life, and it is not supposed to be. Even the so called grandfather of reality tv, the first season of the real world, was far from 100% true to life because these people were put in a situation, and that changed them and their reactions and their lives. I honestly never wonder what is real and what is not when watch a show, because i dont care. I care that it entertains me.

[DRW50]

The problem is if you're going to just fictionalize reality, then you may as well go all the way and hire actors and read a script. The best reality shows are based on truth. Part of truth is moving on when something becomes uninteresting. I've seen people here complain over and over about how badly the Housewives franchise suffers when so many women refuse to film scenes together. That's what I meant by some shows staying on too long. I also think badly faked situations are unentertaining - it's one of the reasons I can barely stomach Rachel from Big Brother.

It's the legacy for the people involved. Speidi admitted to faking things for press attention and money. They were pretty much the only thing anyone talked about at the time and after the show ended, and part of that was based on badly staged breakups and attention-seeking plastic surgeries gone wrong.

[JackPeyton]

Why must they "go all the way" with actors and a script? The Hills worked perfectly fine the way they do it. in the end it is all about doing whatever it is they are doing in a good way. Be it reality, documentary, scripted, whatever. For every issue people list for reality shows i can name another one for scripted shows. No show is utter perfection.

As for RH ladies refusing to be filmed together, doesnt that sort of give you a more realistic view point of the series as opposed to forcing them together?

And it may be the legacy for Heidi & Spencer, and likely Audrina and Stephanie who cant seem to move on, but it sure wont be for the stars - Lauren & Whitney have gone on to do great work in their field and Kristen is getting married and having a baby now. I doubt they look back on it as heir legacy. And the overly faked speidi stuff was clearly faked. the show didnt try to sell it as more than it was, as proven by the direction in the final season and the series finale.

[DRW50]

Because they aren't interested in the real people or their lives. They only want to create fake situations. Do you think the last season of Anna Nicole's show was a fraction as interesting as her own life?

It depends on how this is handled. I think to have people stay on your show who don't want to be around each other and who as a result have little to say or do is a waste of time and is often awkwardly danced around. I think they should just have these shows run for a year or two and then move on with mostly new cast members.

Wasn't it Lauren whose own attempt at a show ended up being rejected by MTV? I think that suggests the people involved were only seen as acceptable if they played the right game.

[JackPeyton]

But the real people and their real life is what they and the fans are interested in, but real life is pretty damn boring on a day to day bases, so they amp it up. As for ANS, i never found any part of her life interesting, so i cant comment as I never watched the show.

This is what the housewives do tho. They do change up the cast. This is only ATL's third season and they have had at least 5 casting changes and likely will next year. They just pretty much completely redid the NYC season cast as well.

Yes, because it was honestly boring and not right for MTV at all. It would have worked on perahps the style network or lifetime, perhaps. It seriously just followed her devolping her line and had absolutely nothing to do with her personal life. I ended up with a screeing of the pilot and yeah, total bore. I love Lauren but wouldnt have kept watching it.

[DRW50]

The only time they seem to change up the casts on the Housewives is when things become so strained they don't have a choice, which usually means one or more seasons of anticlimax.

I would just like to see more attempts at showing a basic day, with less tricks. For instance - it's obviously not the same as Housewives or The Hills or that type of reality - but I can barely watch Shipping Wars because every two seconds, they cut to one of the cast members vainly attempting to say a "cute" one-liner. Why? The most interesting part of the show is seeing these people trying to move their cargo, not two or three recyclings of some woman saying "boys and their toys."

[JackPeyton]

But even shipping wars/storage wars is far from reality. the select the auctions, throw the cast together, make them interact, but everyone else back, and then want commentary. thats not real life.

and ITA about shipping wars. also, the young girl and guy are far more interesting to watch than the vets on that show.

[SFK]

Jack, I must say, you are making me want to check out The Hills. However, I really REALLY cannot stand Spencer, Heidi to a lesser degree. I think Spencer is just vile, worse than any Kardashian, at least outwardly. I hope his assholeishness was more of an act because I just don't want to believe that anyone is that much of a dirty famewhore. Those setup photo shoots could be dismissed as comical, they were sickening, but I can get over the obviousness. I'm just confused b/c I thought the shows they were on were considered "serious" reality, but their hijinks reminded me more of things that Flavor Flav/Rock of Love girls would do.

Speaking of, Flav and New York's shows were appointment TV for my ex and I, just hilarious crack open some beers and laugh our asses off fun. I don't judge myself for being entertained at all, it was just silly fun, and yes, some could argue, maybe even rightfully, that those shows contributed to the dumbing down of America, the degrading of women on TV, the perpetuation of stereotypes. The thing is, without patting myself on the back or anything, I am not an idiot, I am an open minded, intelligent person who knows the real deal and I can't be led by any image that's being perpetuated on the screen. I realize that not everyone is so in touch. That's kind of where my Kardashian gripe comes in, because the VH1 shows always seemed so obviously silly and out there, I mean, anyone wanting to be like New York was most likely cognizant of the camp factor, but I think wanting to be like Kim K., or even a Karrine Stephans, is more dangerous. Look at Montana Fishburne. I just don't like the idea that any girl would think that selling her body, selling her soul, to get her foot in the door towards fame and fortune, and riding it out with a vapid personality thinking she could put the origins of her fame past her and get all high and mighty when people remind her of how she got her start, oh just gtfo with that. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[DRW50]

The fake "honesty" of Kim Kardashian probably bothers me most - the way viewers were essentially conned into believing this was a real wedding, when it was likely all just a scam for money. Then you have to go through the contrivances of the breakup and Kim's suffering. It's so highly orchestrated to the point where it is fiction, and is Kim so fascinating a personality that it's worth sitting through all this kabuki?

[Skin]

What a mess. Regardless I wasn't talking exclusively about soap operas. I was talking about scripted shows like Mad Men, Lost, Grey's Anatomy, House, Queer As Folk, Dexter, Weeds, Big Love, etc. which are all at least a cut or thirteen above these reality plagues in terms of production, writing, acting and story development as you so succinctly pointed out.

That being said there most certainly were good soap storylines the past decade on soaps, the coming out storylines of the first gay female and male in daytime were both done quite well in the forms of Bianca (AMC) and Luke (ATWT). There most certainly have been strong actors and actresses in daytime who delivered amazing material through the characters they played. So I can't imagine what you are talking about in terms of the "acting". Especially since you are trying to talk up reality television in that same area. The "acting" in reality television is atrocious to say the least, which is why so little of their audience actually believes what is in front of them is real. In general scripted shows are better then reality television. There is a reason why so little reality stars are respected. They aren't seen as talented or even worthwhile people, hence the scorn they all regularly receive. There is a reason why actors who act in scripted shows are given more credit for their work then their reality counterparts. So in essence my reasoning is not "bullshit" as you so delicately put it. It's basic fact. I would say even Daytime actors are more respected then any of the Real Housewives or any of the Jersey Shore members. At least they have had an institution which honors their work continuously and aren't constantly spoofed on variety shows.

There is no such thing as a well done reality television show. There is a reason why it's generally said to be "garbage" television or a guilty pleasure. It has no validity to it. You can say whatever you want to about soaps, their quality has slid down the tubes the last couple of years - that doesn't mean every once and while a soap can't tell a strong story that resonates with it's audience. Which is more then I can say for the likes of Kardashian sex tapes, Jersey Shore hook ups and Real Housewives squabbling. It's clear that people are watching these shows because they enjoy seeing train wrecks consistently. The whole reason why their shows are successful is because every one on that show is a hot mess of a person. They audience does not love these caricatures, they love having someone to laugh at and scorn.

I don't hate anything. Ultimately reality television will never destroy good story telling as we can see now with so many scripted shows dominating basic television and even some cable shows. You can have the Bravo, TLC, VH1 and MTV's of the world. I most certainly don't need them.

No they are all of those things. Please don't try to argue that they aren't. I mean when some of the viewing audience themselves think "this is so stupid, how can these people exist" on a frequent basis -- that's a problem.

No one is saying that every show has to be something CNN would air. But I generally would like to watch someone that has a higher IQ then a vegetable.

[All My Shadows]

I think what some of you need to realize is that not all TV shows are made for all people. Jersey Shore isn't for everybody -- people either love it or hate it, and a big part of that is because people who are of that generation/subgroup and can sort of relate to (and identify) some of the basic tenets of the show love it, while people who are far removed from it hate it. Sorry, but nine times out of ten, if you're over 35, the show is not for you. If you're generally a loner, if you don't have a very busy social life, or if you socialize in a certain kind of ciricle, then the show is not for you. There's absolutely no reason for you to enjoy it, because you are simply not who they're marketing the show to. You may see it as A, B, and C, but the people to whom the show is targeted see it as X, Y, and Z. We can point out its cultural value because we're more familiar with what's being depicted than you are. It doesn't make us stupid or lesser, and honestly, it says nothing about the "dumbing down of America." It makes us different. And history has shown that people generally don't like to see cultures other than their own on television.

And believe it or not, not everyone's world is rocked by "quality" shows such as Mad Men. I've tried with Mad Men. I really have. But I recognize that it not. for. me. And so I pay it no mind.