GH: Classic Thread

[Liberty City]

Insanely amazing work by Nancy Lee Grahn.

[carolineg]

That makes sense.  It's pretty decent. The stuff with Cal drags on a bit post-island, but it's mostly silly plans teenagers would do that are absolutely stupid.  There is blackmail, them all pooling their money together to pay the blackmail, Jason trying to sell Edward's coin collection, and it all working out in the end.  There is also a whole thing about Rhonda sending one of her boyfriends to beat up Jagger because she was convinced Jagger beat Karen on the island. Brenda shows up at video 94 of this playlist (I skipped a bit), so I am dipping out of this project.  I am pretty well versed in everything that happens next and I still don't find Karen compelling enough to follow even in edit form.

I might go back and watch edits of Brenda and Jagger talking about Mike/Stone because I think there was more elaborate info there and Brenda actually has a bigger part in find Gina/Stone than Karen does.  

[Vee]

@dc11786 I am curious about something: You've talked a lot about the merry-go-round of stories and love interests for various characters in the late '80s/early '90s before Monty. You also mentioned that they apparently tried to pair up Anna with Edge/Evan Jerome. I'd love to know more about that as he seems like a real scuzzy character in these 1991 eps, even by Anna's occasionally dicey standards. What was that about? 

Also, they do make a lot of mention about Bobbie being back at work here though I know she apparently quit before Monty took over (they keep saying she was just on leave). Did Tony leave her at this point, or how did they get back together from here? And how long have Alan and Monica been divorced at this point? I know they get back together shortly. Thanks for any help; I dig through wonderful past posts of yours often, but there is such a wealth of information out there to sift through.

People can say what they will about Monty's disastrous '91 revamp and they're mostly right from what I've seen and heard, but I also really admire the audacity and scope of the big canvas-wide event with the S.S. Tracy sinking and how it shakes up everything and becomes a cross-town community event while also adding new people (of varying quality) right on top of the Valentine's Day follies with Robert and Anna, which I do find both hot and funny. You don't see scale and intent like that often anymore. Tracy and Larry Ashton (and Lila!) getting smashed together is also really funny. I wonder if they were ever committed to Larry with Tracy. I liked him when he returned in the 2010s, hoped Hugo Napier would stick around, and sighed when Carlivati(?) wrote him out by exposing as a collaborator in some skullduggery and having him quite literally flee the scene, racing offscreen on foot out of the Quartermaine mansion to evade capture.

I didn't realize Paul Satterfield's Paul apparently came on as another suave bad guy a la Spencer Truman on OLTL; I knew he was in with the cartel for his daughter but I didn't know he poisoned a bunch of people. I wonder when they decided to try to redeem him and make him a hero. He's always come off smarmy to me, but I may be biased re: evil Spencer.

Edited March 9 by Vee

[dc11786]

The age difference between Burton and McCullough makes Robin/Jason impossible in 1992. I never got the sense the show thought Karen/Jason would be rootable. I'm not sure what was in the playlist, but Robin definitely perceived Karen as a romantic rival early on before that was dropped. 

I see the appeal for Karen with the Quartermaines. Her mom is a mess, and while the Quartermaines are too there is a lot of love amongst the chaos and in-fighting. I could see why Karen wouldn't want to give that up so easily. Plus, Karen's goal was to be a doctor so being drawn into a family headed by two well regarded medical professionals is appealing, but I don't find Jason super appealing. To be fair, most of my early viewing of Jason was post-Karen/Jason 1993 when he and A.J. are slut shaming her so I don't have the best impression. 

For Jason, I felt that Karen was pretty and smart and her aloofness made her a challenge. By 1993, Jason just seems to want what he wants and doesn't like to be told no. 

The Nikki stuff you watched I believe would have been late May/early June. Nikki does leave town (briefly) later in June returning to Washington, D.C., where she was from even though there is no home to return to. 

Thanks. The Lenny story makes sense. 

The island story involves Cal and Joseph Adkins. Cal was one of the guys that Jagger pulled the robbery with at Ruby's. Cal's brother was Joseph Adkins, a cop killer who had written a book that all the women at "General Hospital" were incredibly moved by. Bobbie was moved the most and befriended the older Adkins visiting him in prison. The Adkins brothers both escape from prison and ended up on the island with Jagger, Jason, and Karen. I think it was Cal who "died" which leads to Joseph forcing them to steal cars for him or something silly. The Adkins arc ends right as Brenda is about to be introduced so they swiftly moved from one story to the other. 

Edge Jerome was introduced in November, 1990, in the waning days of Gene Palumbo and Joseph Hardy's run. The show had picked up a thread from the previous year when Victor Jerome had died. Lucy had "found" the Jerome diamonds and turned them over until an heir could claim them. Why Julian wasn't able to when he was alive is beyond me. Tracy wanted to mess with Lucy and had Scotty (her partner in crime/lover) help her discover if there were any Jeromes left out there. Scotty and Tracy break into the Harrington mansion (located next to the Quartermaine house) to locate the Jerome family bible which reveals an Evan Jerome, Jr. exists. Scotty tracks Evan/Edge down to Berlin and brings him back. 

Edge asks Anna out, but she turns him down. I felt they were going to do more with that because story wise Anna had ties to the Jeromes and Anna hadn't been really paired with anyone since Casey (despite some chemistry tests with her and Shep Casey are probably some other one offs I am forgetting). Edge was seeing Dawn mostly at the time of his arrival, but Michael Watson was off filming overseas so Decker was off canvas for the initial Edge/Dawn pairing. 

When the whole adoption situation comes to light, I think Bobbie becomes a bit of a pariah because she keeps the truth about Cheryl/Lucas to herself even while Cheryl is thought to be dying of liver or kidney failure. Bobbie and Tony break up over that, but they ended up getting back together within a few months after the failed attempt to pair cousins Bobbie and Bill Eckert. I think Bobbie might quit over the Lucas stuff as well. In story, it looks like B.J. starts acting out because of Tony and Bobbie's breakup leading to a temporary reconciliation which becomes permanent. 

Regarding the sinking of the S.S. Tracy and the attempt to revamp the show, I will credit Monty for having a vision, however misguided it was in both content and execution. I think once the carnage settles by 1992 the Eckerts aren't the albatrosses they were initially. My biggest complaint is when you disgard a major portion of your canvas as Monty did, it is like watching a new show and new shows take years to develop because everything is starting at scratch. I found the March/April 1991 episodes I've watched more engaging than I expected, but it's an entire new show and it feels a bit hollow compared to anything from Wendy Riche a year later and lacking the familiarity of characters from the year prior. I think Palumbo maintained the core but weaved in and out secondary characters. I would have been curious to see how Riche might have handled the Charlene's brood. 

I believe that Larry is introduced to the canvas in October, 1988, by Ann Marcus as part of her post-strike decision to make Kurt McKinney's Ward Ned Ashton, though maybe this was in a bible she left pre-strike. Larry was tied to Colton Shore's mystery woman Ariel, this was Larry's second wife I think. By December/January, it is Pat Falken Smith writing and by mid-March Tracy has returned. Jane Elliott was still at "Days of our Lives" as Angelica until February, 1989. I believe Palumbo takes over around May-June so whatever Smith may have planned for the duo may never have occurred, if anything. 

In what I've seen, Palumbo wasn't big on revisiting Larry/Tracy. Larry is comic relief and gets a C-level (or lower) romance with Terry Brock. Later, his romantic life is mostly off screen. The best of Larry under Palumbo is his desire to be a James Bond figure given all the spy intrigue with Faison and Wyndmere. 

I feel like a lot of the Paul / Tracy / Ned / Jenny stuff is laid foundational pretty early in Jenny and Paul's runs but it doesn't seem to pick up until the show reveals that Paul was only being tricked into the cartel. Whether or not that was the intention from the beginning, I am not 100% sure. 

[Vee]

Terry Brock?? There's a pairing. Thanks again for all you do.

[carolineg]

The clips I was watching were strictly early Jagger/Karen, so Robin only appears when she is with them.  She doesn't get an entire POV, but I assumed Robin perceived Karen as a romantic rival although Jason/Karen were oblivious.  

I am not sure if we are supposed to find Karen/Jason rootable.  Obviously, Jagger/Karen were the endgame from the jump, but Jason was very nice to Karen in the beginning.  Jason was a bit douchey to Jagger, but good to Karen.  I can understand Jason's anger a bit (not the slut shaming) because Karen did really lead him on for a long time.  This is why I tend to find Karen so passive.  She seems to just let things happen to her and creates problems with her lack of action and backbone.  She let's Brenda walk all over and she let's Jagger and Jason save her or fix her problems.   I don't even think Karen truly finds her own agency and power until the end of the Sonny storyline.

Lol!  I really don't have a take on Nikki because I only have seen her in scenes and Kelly's but I do know no one except AJ likes her and I am not sure why Ruby even rents a room to her.

Idk, if we hear more about Lenny or the boyfriend/stepfather.  I am pretty sure Brenda/Jagger talk about it again when they are looking for Gina and Stone.  I'll take a peek at that soon.  I am not sure if the story changes because they obviously age up the kids quite a bit.  I know Jagger says something about running away from a group home, but looking at the clip I linked he's just crying in a hallway.  They don't appear to take Jagger into custody.

Thanks for breaking down the Atkins story.  I knew who they were, but I started skipping ahead when Karen/Jagger/Jason started doing increasingly ridiculous things because it got a bit silly.

[Vee]

It can't possibly be as silly as the Todd/Tea/Shawn Christian island story on OLTL, where Howarth finds old grenades and talks to a hermit crab for weeks. They were just padding time over the summer on that remote while he was off doing Dawson's Creek IIRC.

Edited March 9 by Vee

[carolineg]

The actual island story wasn't that bad.  Once Jason/Jagger/Karen got back thinking they killed a man they were getting blackmailed into increasingly goofy things.  Jagger was stealing cars, Jason was stealing Edward's coin collection to make money, Karen was crying or something and it just one of those dumb teen stories.  If any of them had any brains they would just tell their parents (or just Monica/Alan) they killed an escaped con in self defense.  And...he wasn't even dead.  Then Brenda arrives two minutes later and the island debacle is mostly forgotten.  

[titan1978]

I was at the perfect age as a young teen when Karen/Jagger/Brenda/Jason/AJ started getting played. I loved all those characters back then.

As we have discussed before, Monty had the right idea. She just went about it all wrong. More grounded stories and characters were needed. But she threw too much out too fast for the audience. I think if she chose better writers it could have worked. Marland and PFS both wrote more grounded material that she produced incredibly well. I also think a different actor playing Bill would have helped. Nobody wanted Geary back as another character except maybe Geary himself.

 

[Khan]

In retrospect, Gloria Monty would have been better off bringing Geary back as Luke.  If Genie Francis wasn't available or eager to return at that time, they could've simply said Laura was (presumed) dead and that Luke was back in Port Charles to find her killer(s).

[dc11786]

The Terry/Larry stuff is very low key and happens just as Terry is about to leave town.

All this discussion got me back into November, 1990. Tracy clearly has no romantic interest in Larry at this point, but Larry definitely pines for Tracy. This may have been an ongoing thing, but Larry garners little interest from me. 

And in regards to the last post, I forgot to add that Monica and Alan divorce in March/April, 1990 right before Alan and Lucy marry in May. They remarry in summer of 1991 if I remember correctly. 

From my recollection, Jason seemed dense and Karen seemed wishy washy towards their relationship in 1993. Karen clearly has no interest in Jason. Jason clearly doesn't want to admit defeat. I am a fan of angst so I definitely can get behind Jagger and Karen. Your point about Karen's reserved nature is noted and is something I am not fond of in Levinson's heroines. I like when he allows them to have a little spunk (which the scriptwriters manage on occasion). As a counterpoint, I find that Brenda, under Levinson, lacks humanity, which is noteable on a show where there is such depth of character and investment in the rich emotional lives of the characters. While I get Brenda is suppose to keep things close to the vest, it makes moments like her telenovela-esque meltdown over the letter cringey. I enjoy Levinson, but it isn't perfect. 

I am terrible on the head writer timeline for 1992. I know the start of the year is:

January - February: Norma Monty and Linda Grover

February - March: Norma Monty

March - April: no headwriter

And then there is Maralyn Thoma (possibly solo), Bill Levinson with Thoma, and Bill Levinson (solo)

I wonder if there is a writer's change in the fall because there starts to be some major shifts in the story around October with Cheryl dying, A.J. and Nikki's aborted wedding, and the Jack Kensington story starting up. 

What I liked about the post-island/pre-Brenda episodes I've seen is the triangle working together. 

I think there needed to be work within the existing structure. In the pre-revamp Monty period (December-early February 1991), you have a lot of the things she was trying to do but better because the canvas was still there. Dawn ended up sick due to contaminated water at the condo complex tied to shady Broxton, the lawyer involved in the Lucas adoption fiasco. There was class conflict with Lucy fretting over her cousin Colton engaged to the Quartermaine maid Carla Greco. Charlene was still around. Cheryl's kidney failure was another medical story that kept the hospital in focus. It wasn't A+ material, but it was at least heading in the right direction. 

I get the sense Gloria wanted complete creative control which is why she installed her sister as head writer. The Eckerts were most likely from her proposed soap she was trying to launch the previous year out of a facility she was involved in developing in Portland. I am not sure the casting worked based on the early characterizations for the Eckerts, but I think the slimmed down Eckerts (Bill and Jenny as leads, Sly supporting, Angela recurring) worked well especially when Angela was reinvented to be more reflective of Carol Lawrence's persona. Bill involved in business with Jenny married into the Q clan was an effective setup.

I wonder how Wayne Northrup might have done as Bill Eckert. 

I think Monty recognized after a short while that her idea for an American "EasterEnders" wasn't going to work and started to recognize in her final days that she needed to embrace the past which is why in her last month Delfina makes an appearance, Slick Jones recurrs for a moment, and we see the return of the Q clan with Edward back from the dead and Jason SORASed. 

I don't think the action and adventure tales were going to work in the early 1990s so there would have needed to be a new direction for Luke and I am not really sure what that could have been. Some of the least effective pieces for me of Monty 2.0 are the Cartel story and a lot of the action surrounding it. The emotional fallout (Bill kills Harlan) was effective, but getting there was a mess.

[titan1978]

Well we know from Genie Francis that ABC ended her time on All My Children, even though the show wanted to keep her. And the network told her flat out that they wanted her only as Laura on GH, which pissed her off and she refused for about a year. So ABC knew Bill wasn’t working and wanted Tony to play Luke. And Tony wouldn’t be Luke back then without Genie as Laura.

I think Labine had the right idea- the action is grounded with the return of Frank Smith and the mob, followed by vying for control of that territory after he was killed. 

[dc11786]

@Vee I am at the start of the Evan Jerome, Jr./Edge Jackson stuff. Evan and Anna meet pretty quickly. Scotty finds "Evan" in Berlin working as an aspiring music video director (I believe Hardy had a background in musical theatre and Palumbo may have been Judy Garland's manager at one point). Scotty has lured Edge back to Port Charles to collect the diamonds that belonged to Victor Jerome, who had died the previous year in an attempted sexual tryst with Lucy. Lucy wanted to claim the diamonds as her own because they were worth millions. Scotty, Tracy, and Larry are working together to get a Jerome heir to claim them so that Lucy will suffer. Once in Port Charles, Edge finds his way to a dance studio on the Port Charles University's campus where Anna had taken Robin for an audition. Anna and Edge meet at the studio. 

What's not incredibly clear to me is whether or not Edge was suppose to be an imposter or not from the get go. The summaries suggest that Edge might have been lying (initially) to cut down on the ties to the Jeromes as part of his attempts to seduce Anna, but I will have to see how that plays out. 

Anna's intentions with Edge are more probably less amorous. In the episodes proceeding, Anna and Robin have been fighting about everything and Frisco suggests that Anna has gotten too old and out of touch with youth culture, said the singing WSB agent with daddy issues who has recently become a father. Anna's interest in Edge would seem to be to bridge the cultural divide between herself and her daughter, but Edge definitely seems drawn to Anna. 

I don't think the intention was for Edge to be a true imposter, but Monty probably changed it. Duke Lavery had been accused of murdering Evan Jerome, Sr., but it was actually his half-sister Camellia. I believe Jeanne Glynn was in the co-headwriter role at the time. I suspect she or Palumbo may have wanted to revisit the Duke angle in Evan's history. 

On another topic, Rita Lloyd Jones is being set up for arrival. Rita was Andrew Jones' second wife who had slept with Andrew, and I believe Tony, when the mother Cindy was dying of an illness. The birth of Maxie has brought about a bunch of unresolved animosity on Frisco's part involving his father and Rita's arrival issure to escalate it. What is interesting is that Rita's introduction is as a mystery woman saving clippings of Frisco. It is an interesting misdirection because it would seem like Rita is a former lover of Frisco's, not his stepmother. 

The contaminated water story has started. The condo complex mystery starts right after the Davis divorce as Monica agrees to buy the townhouse and allow Meg and Dawn stay there. Meg immediately mentions the water issues. What doesn't make sense is that Meg and Harrison are living there for months but haven't gotten sick, but soon several people will even though it has already been revealed that the construction company tapped into a contaminated water source because it was cheaper than the city sewer line. Norman Snow is now playing Broxton, the Jerome family attorney. 

Also @slick jones, there is a recreated flashback (I believe) of Victor Jerome in 1990 with the original actor in the role. Also, Frankie's full name is Francisco Greco if you didn't already catch it. 

[j swift]

When Brad Maule initially assumed the role of Tony, Soap Opera Digest featured two stories about the production's inclination to dismiss him, contemplating either eliminating the character or recasting it. This inclination is understandable, given that Tony's backstory, as well as his later affair with Carly, demands an actor who exudes sexual allure, a trait not particularly prominent in Mr. Maule's repertoire. Evidently, the character evolved over time to align more closely with the actor's strengths. However, one can't help but speculate whether a more roguish Tony would have prolonged Rita's presence on the show. With Frisco's departure and the subsequent shift in creative direction under Monty, Rita's exit became almost inevitable. Yet, Rita possessed significant potential, and the intriguing sibling rivalry between Frisco and Tony seemed to fade into obscurity.

Edited March 10 by j swift

[carolineg]

Jason is pretty dense.  The red flags are everywhere with Karen lol.  

I wouldn't say Brenda lacks humanity, but lacks depth and direction in early episodes.  VM is also very green as an actress.

I think WN would have been great as Bill