Is the question which soap cancellation signaled the end to daily daytime soaps? If that's the question, then I will agree that it was the end of ATWT. The show itself had been garbage for years, and deserved to end, but I think that when it's cancellation was announced, people noticed that it had been playing ratings musical chairs with GH, Days, AMC and OLTL for years. It was probably the first time that people noticed that less than a million viewers separated the soaps between third and last place, and that there was really a statistical tie for last between every soap not produced by the Bells.

I don't think it can be GL, because even though it was the oldest show on the air, I think most people knew that it was way past its expiration date. The show no longer looked like it was produced by professionals, so its decline was more noticeable. But, with ATWT, people finally saw what mattered, the numbers, and noticed that they were the same for every soap. Even Y&R's numbers look bad, when people saw how few 18-49 year olds tune into the show.

The most devastating was the cancellation of OLTL, because it didn't need to happen at that moment. It's cancellation came while the show teeter tottered from being on somewhat of an upswing to at the very least was treading decently. Truth be told, it could have went another season without losing the network much (if any) money. Honestly, I think OLTL was a casualty of ABC needing to get rid of 'a' soap. AMC was on a more blatant downward spiral, and it made sense to cancel it....but I get the feeling that the brass thought it wouldn't be "right" to cancel AMC and leave OLTL on the air, and also didn't want to have to deal with rabid AMC supporters calling shenanigans over it...so away OLTL went too to save face. That they gave OLTL four extra months seems like their way of subtly acknowledging all of this.

AMC and OLTL's ratings are pretty much the same, so it's hard to make an argument that one deserved to go, but the other didn't. ABC is a business, if they thought that OLTL could make them money, or that the demo ratings could actually grow, the show would not have been canceled.

But OLTL? The show was on the upswing, finishing better than or competitively with the other surviving soaps

For a period of about a month, but the yearly ratings tell another story. ABC didn't make their decision based on what OLTL has done over a four or five week period. More importantly, OLTL being on par with the other soaps just stressed the fact that the ratings for all of the shows are bad. None of them can survive by drawing so few 18-49 year olds, and around 2.5 million or fewer total viewers.

Edited June 8, 201114 yr by Bella20

I would say canceling both AMC and OLTL was the most devastating. It got rid of 2/3 of ABC's line-up just like that. I think the writing is on the wall for the rest of the soaps with GH being canceled very soon.

I say AMC/OLTL. Because, they were canceled at the same time...and ABC owns their soaps so actually getting rid of them was a definite shock.

While devastating, I don't think AW's cancellation was the most devastating to the genre. I think AW can be grouped with other popular long running soaps like EON, SFT, and The Doctors as a particularly *big* cancellation of its time. I think AW's cancellation lends itself more to the natural attrition of soaps and perhaps seems more devastating because it's fresher in our minds (especially for those of us under 40).

I also think that the cancellation of EVERY soap (ten or so) save for B&B that was introduced in the '80s and '90s was particularly significant, an indication of more devastating times to come. All of the genre's saplings kept getting ripped from the ground and those grand old trees kept on growing, the maintenance becoming costly and in some cases not worth it (the wrong branches getting hacked off along the way ), until they were chopped down or mercifully struck by lightning, however you wanna look at it.

That said, I think the cancellations of GL and ATWT were VERY palpable hits, especially when it comes to the iconography and nostalgia factor of U.S. soap operas. But I think the dual cancellation of AMC and OLTL was the death blow, that in so many words said, "This soap thing is over. It's really over."

Edited June 8, 201114 yr by SFK

I also think that the cancellation of EVERY soap (ten or so) save for B&B that was introduced in the '80s and '90s was particularly significant, an indication of more devastating times to come. All of the genre's saplings kept getting ripped from the ground and those grand old trees kept on growing, the maintenance becoming costly and in some cases not worth it (the wrong branches getting hacked off along the way ), until they were chopped down or mercifully struck by lightning, however you wanna look at it.

Yes. And plus, the ratio of cut soaps to new soaps went crazy. From 1970 to 1999, basically 30 years, there was at least one soap getting the axe (or a "retooling") every two years. That was fine in the 70s and 80s when they were being replaced by other soaps. There were, just counting network daytime, thirteen new soaps from 1970-1984. Since then? Six. Less than half.

They're cutting down trees, hacking the wrong branches off of the ones still standing, and they refuse to dig 'em up and try replanting them in another yard where the sun might shine on them better.

Okay, I'm just going to bang my usual drum here. It's not the cancellations that are devastating to the genre. It's the stagnation and lack of evolution. Cancellation is just a fact of life but the devastation comes from the fact that there's nothing to replace them.

The larger issue is the fact networks gave up on the soap genre when they stopped premiering new soaps.

AW was replaced with PASSIONS so AW cancelation can not be said to be the start of some downward sprial

nor can NBC's lack of replacing SUBE as NBC previously went with a 2 soap lineup after SB's demise and

before SUBE's premiere from 93-97. The fact ABC gave up PC's timeslot I believe is the most devestating

cancellation as it started this trend of no new soaps to replace a canceled soap. As NBC didn't replace

Passions, CBS didn't replace GL and ATWT and now ABC not replacing AMC and OLTL with new soaps.

Forget which soap still had life in it or some other fan-based biased opinion lol its the fact networks

gave up on investing in new soaps that killed the genre.

While devastating, I don't think AW's cancellation was the most devastating to the genre. I think AW can be grouped with other popular long running soaps like EON, SFT, and The Doctors as a particularly *big* cancellation of its time. I think AW's cancellation lends itself more to the natural attrition of soaps and perhaps seems more devastating because it's fresher in our minds (especially for those of us under 40).

I also think that the cancellation of EVERY soap (ten or so) save for B&B that was introduced in the '80s and '90s was particularly significant, an indication of more devastating times to come. All of the genre's saplings kept getting ripped from the ground and those grand old trees kept on growing, the maintenance becoming costly and in some cases not worth it (the wrong branches getting hacked off along the way ), until they were chopped down or mercifully struck by lightning, however you wanna look at it.

That said, I think the cancellations of GL and ATWT were VERY palpable hits, especially when it comes to the iconography and nostalgia factor of U.S. soap operas. But I think the dual cancellation of AMC and OLTL was the death blow, that in so many words said, "This soap thing is over. It's really over."

Yes, yes, yes. I agree with everything you said. Another World was, like SFT and EON, a casualty of poor decisions made by the network, the powers-that-be, etc. It was devastating at the time because it was the first long-time soap since Search for Tomorrow in 1986 to be axed (unless you consider Ryan's Hope or Loving to be long healthy runs for soaps, which were '89 and '95 respectively) but it didn't signal the end for soaps just yet. True, soaps had begun their decline in 1999 but there was still *hope* for the genre to bounce back in some capacity. And like someone else said, Sunset Beach ending and thus leaving NBC with only 2 soaps wasn't a new thing either because it had run with only DAYS and AW from 1993-1997. It wasn't til a full ten years later that another longtime show was axed (GL in 2009).

Although it didn't start the domino effect, Port Charles ending and NOT being replaced with another soap was definitely an alarming sign.

I think Guiding Light's death was devastating for the genre because it was the first of the 8 longtime soaps (yes, I'll include B&B as one of the longtime and once-healthy) to be cancelled and replaced with something on the network (instead of giving the timeslot over to the affiliates) and for the networks to realize that they make something for super-cheap and still get the same amount of viewers. GL was also the longest-running show in broadcast history. It was the FIRST of the REMAINING survivors to go. Yes, we soap fans who watched it day in and day out could see the shoddy quality GL had become, but from an outsider's perspective or former watcher's perspective, having this big piece of television history extinguished was truly the beginning to the domino effect.

But like others have said, AMC and OLTL have a younger audience. GL and ATWT were grandma's shows, while AMC and OLTL were their daughter's shows. Yes, they've all gotten older, but the longtime fans for AMC/OLTL are a full generation younger than ATWT/GL, and they still make more of a buzz; they let themselves be heard, whereas CBS Daytime fans in general have been more passive. Like one of my friends once said: ABC Daytime has fans. NBC Daytime has rabid fans. CBS Daytime has viewers.

But AMC and OLTL's double-whammy cancellation gets mainsteam America talking and noticing and discussing that this once-vibrant genre of television is coming to an end.

Edited June 8, 201114 yr by Gray Bunny

The larger issue is the fact networks gave up on the soap genre when they stopped premiering new soaps.

AW was replaced with PASSIONS so AW cancelation can not be said to be the start of some downward sprial

nor can NBC's lack of replacing SUBE as NBC previously went with a 2 soap lineup after SB's demise and

before SUBE's premiere from 93-97. The fact ABC gave up PC's timeslot I believe is the most devestating

cancellation as it started this trend of no new soaps to replace a canceled soap. As NBC didn't replace

Passions, CBS didn't replace GL and ATWT and now ABC not replacing AMC and OLTL with new soaps.

Forget which soap still had life in it or some other fan-based biased opinion lol its the fact networks

gave up on investing in new soaps that killed the genre.

Exactly.

AW was cancelled for a soap no matter what opinion one has of that particular soap. NBC was still interested in the soap business when they cancelled AW, and replaced it with Passions.

However I believe it was shortly after that, perhaps when ratings for Passions were proving to not be that great, or around the time of Port Charles's cancellation, that the networks seemingly gave up on replacing their cancelled soaps with new ones, instead choosing to go for talk shows, game shows, or in PC's case giving their airtime back to affiliates.

Dark Shadows.

Exactly.

AW was cancelled for a soap no matter what opinion one has of that particular soap. NBC was still interested in the soap business when they cancelled AW, and replaced it with Passions.

However I believe it was shortly after that, perhaps when ratings for Passions were proving to not be that great, or around the time of Port Charles's cancellation, that the networks seemingly gave up on replacing their cancelled soaps with new ones, instead choosing to go for talk shows, game shows, or in PC's case giving their airtime back to affiliates.

Great points, which I really hadn't thought of previously. I never watched Passions so I can't debate the merits of it (or lack thereof) but I know that it was considered to be creatively different enough from the rest while still maintaining the soap structure to be considered a "new kind of soap." In retrospect, I guess it makes sense that its failure to succeed would have a chilling effect on networks' plans for any new soaps. The writing was probably on the wall as far as the execs were considered by then. It was going to be too expensive to try anything new to draw a new generation of fans so maybe they were willing to ride it out with the remaining shows until the revenue they generated dried out. Structurally they might have tried something different but maybe the risk was too great that they'd lose their existing (but aging) audience and end sooner. Who knows...

SB did better among viewers as a whole its final year, but Loving actually outranked it among women 18-49. In fact, as early as 1990, NBC was considering replacing SB with a soap that might appeal to younger viewers.

Can you point me to a source on this? Because I find that hard to believe. Even though we didn't get demo ratings back then, Loving always seemed to skew older and SB, with its glitzy glossy production values & Dynasty-esque camp, always skewed younger. I'm just not buying it.

Here are some SB ratings from its last year

Dec 14-18, 1992

HH

1. Y&R 7.9/30

2. AMC 6.6/23

3. ATWT 5.8/22

4. B&B 5.6/19

5. GH 5.4/18

6. GL 5.3/18

7. OLTL 5.1/18

7. DAYS 5.1/17

9. AW 3.2/12

10. SB 2.5/8

11. LOV 2.4/9

Dec 28- Jan 1, 1992

HH

1. Y&R 9.1/27

2. AMC 8.0/23

3. B&B 6.5/19

4. GH 6.3/18

5. ATWT 6.1/19

5. OLTL 6.1/19

7. GL 5.9/17

8. DAYS 5.3/15

9. AW 3.6/11

10. LOV 3.2/9

11. SB 2.9/8

I'll buy the first set of ratings, but the second set doesn't seem right to me. I don't remember Loving EVER jumping almost a full ratings point in a matter of week. Can you provide a link or scan of the article you're getting your information from? I'm not calling either of you liars by any means, I'd just like to see a source.

ATWT was by far most devastating because it's fortunes were, unfortunately, tied to GL's demise. That was a raw deal. Yes, the demo wasn't great, but it's not like it's lead-in (B& was a demo grabber. ATWT was iconic in that it basically remained true to its storytelling - family based stories. Yes, there were plenty of missteps, but it certainly didn't deserve to get the axe just 2.5 months after GL left the air and then have 9 months left. I wish they would have waited a bit longer. What was remarkable was that the ratings didn't fall off the cliff after the announcement - they were pretty steady.

ATWT, which I only watched on and off in the mid-90s and didn't get hooked on until 2000, devastated me even more than SB and AW being canned. I watched SB from 85 until the end and LOVED it. But the last 8 months were so disappointing and the ending so AWFUL (with nary a mention of Cruz & Eden) that it actually took away some of my sadness, as I was worried how much worse it would have gotten under that regime (Rauch/Long). AW was on a creative upswing and I was LOVING it for its final year and a half or so and it probably hit me a little harder than SB. I grew up with AW- some of my first memories are watching DAYS and AW in 1982. I'd spent 17 out of 20 years of my life watching that show and it hurt.

But what made ATWT more devastating for me personally is that there wasn't another soap I could turn on and become as invested in anymore. Somewhere along the way, ATWT became my soap and I fell in love with practically every character in the cast. Plus, IMO, ATWT got good again in the Spring of 2009, after a slump since mid-06, and I was 100% hooked on it. It was miles above the other shows in 2010 and, though I still have DAYS, the quality of DAYS was nowhere near that of ATWT when it left the airwaves. The returns of Carly & Vivian gave me some hope for the future, but we all know how that turned out.

When SB went off the air, I fell in love with Y&R and it filled the empty space in my heart that SB left. I got my camp & humor from B&B at the time. And when AW left the airwaves, B&B was experiencing a creative renaissance, much of which was due to the epic Thorne/Brooke romance. Why the show never revisited that is still a mystery. But with ATWT gone, no soap was there to fill the void- Y&R had turned to sh!t, DAYS wasn't the same, and B&B lost me years ago.

Is the question which soap cancellation signaled the end to daily daytime soaps? If that's the question, then I will agree that it was the end of ATWT. The show itself had been garbage for years, and deserved to end, but I think that when it's cancellation was announced, people noticed that it had been playing ratings musical chairs with GH, Days, AMC and OLTL for years. It was probably the first time that people noticed that less than a million viewers separated the soaps between third and last place, and that there was really a statistical tie for last between every soap not produced by the Bells.

I disagree that ATWT was garbage for years. IMO, the show got really good in mid-09 and even though Janet was overexposed, overall, I felt the quality was very good before, during, and after its cancellation.

I don't think it can be GL, because even though it was the oldest show on the air, I think most people knew that it was way past its expiration date. The show no longer looked like it was produced by professionals, so its decline was more noticeable.

^^^YES! THIS!!

That said, I think the cancellations of GL and ATWT were VERY palpable hits, especially when it comes to the iconography and nostalgia factor of U.S. soap operas. But I think the dual cancellation of AMC and OLTL was the death blow, that in so many words said, "This soap thing is over. It's really over."

Agreed. We felt it when ATWT was canned and AMC was moved to LA, but the simultaneous cancellation of AMC & OLTL was the nail in the coffin.

Guiding Light...it started a domino effect. It may have been on its last legs but GL's demise led to ATWT's demise and so on.

I completely agree. I remember hearing back in 1994 that Guiding Light might get cancelled, yet it stayed on the air another 15 years even though the ratings and quality got progressively worse. I agree with Kim Zimmer, who believed no one wanted to be the one who pulled the plug on this legendary show. Once it was pulled, the domino effect started.

I think it was definitely AMC/OLTL b/c they were more popular soaps among younger people and ABC Soaps always had the most devoted fans out the networks over the years.

AMC and OLTL's cancellations never seemed to rest as rumors were still going on for three months until they were saved just yesterday. Fans kept on fighting in large numbers and I think that kind of support definitely made shockwaves through the media. I always knew personally once the ABC soaps were canceled we wouldn't hear the end of it from its fans.

GL was lying on a deathbed for years and years and ATWT was always going to follow suit whenever the hammer was laid down on GL so people expected it.

AMC and OLTL's new internet deals have a chance to actually give this genre a rebirth.

In my opinion, we are straying from the topic, which is not about popularity, audience acceptance, or surprise. Of the four soaps listed in the original topic, GL had the most devastating effect as it was indeed a domino effect. Removing GL caused ATWT to fall to last place, and with each subsequent soap removed, another has to assume the last place position. It does not matter whether GL was on the brink of cancelation for years or whether or not it was expected. It does not matter if ATWT had two years of dismal ratings or ten. GL's removal clearly made another soap the loser.

This is the difference between contemporary soaps and the soaps of my generation. Back in the 60's and 70's, and even into the 80's, soaps were tiered in their ratings. There was a well rating group which averaged 8 and 9 ratings, mid range soaps with 6 and 7s, and low rating soaps with 5s down to 1s or 2s. The loss of a low rated soap did not have an effect on the mid and high ratings soaps, because they were always several ratings points away. Now we have one soap -Y&R- with survivable ratings, a full rating point and more higher than the #2 soap, and then everything after that is fairly within a tenth of rating point from one another -or several soaps tying with the same low rating. You really cannot say that a soap with a 1.6 performs vastly more poorly than one with a 1.7. If the 1.6 goes, the 1.7 soap is not far behind. When GL was cancelled, I knew that ATWT would go within a year. I am truly surprised that anyone was naive enough to not understand the effect one had upon the other or that anyone is still in denial about it.

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