As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[P.J.]

 

My guess would be just resistance to change. I'm not sure Barbara was as beloved as Betsy, but viewers had watched her be a tortured heroine for years. She and Gunnar were very popular. I don't want to say ATWT viewers were stodgy, but I think once characters were "slotted", they expected them to progress in certain ways. A shady character could stay shady (ala John), but "good" characters were fundamentally good, and the goal a "bad" character should have is to be "better".  Barbara snapping and becoming a bitchy "slut" (c'mon, Tonio?) was a dramatic shift.  This is the same show that just a few years later tried the same shift with Heather Rattray's Lily, which didn't stick.

It's hard to say, as I didn't have a lot of outside perspective at the time. I kinda remember the James/Barbara/Gunnar triangle, but it's hard to remember Barbara's personality. 

Did people really think of Barbara and Margo as "friends"? After Margo had slept with James? Oy vey.

And I hate to admit it, but in those scenes, Barbara makes Carly look like an amateur. Babs is stone COLD in dealing with Margo and Shannon. And *snort* at her dismissing Tonio. 

[NothinButAttitude]

 

Regarding Margo/Babs being friends, what was more of my assessment given episodes I've seen prior to big lie. They did seem friendly with one another post James. 

 

And now that you bring up HR's Lily, Marland did try it again, and I found it refreshing again from what I've seen of HR's Lily. I've always grew tired of watching Lily pine after Holden. From what I've seen, I liked that at one point, HR's Lily was cold and taking no prisoners. It made sense for her (too) to make the shift. I do think that we (soap fans) have the tendency to hold characters in a box while fail to realize that these shows and its characters are supposed to be wrapped up in reality. We all aren't on our best behavior, so why expect the same of a character? But again, the shift has to make sense, which is what I felt (from what I've seen) with Barbara. 

[Broderick]

The only complaint I ever heard about Barbara back then was there was too much "obvious eye-batting" during her bitchiness.  Most folks seemed to think it was funny, though.  I did.    

[DramatistDreamer]

Kind of weird for soap fans capable of posting on an online forum be so rigid about a character. I think that vixen aspect of Barbara’s history holds up incredibly well, even all these decades later. She could be venomous but she wasn’t completely evil, to me she was pretty complex. There was the side of her that reveled in being aggressive in business, in satisfying her needs, but she also loved her son Paul and could be insecure  in her role as mother and protector, and like someone upthread mentioned, she cared deeply what Kim, Lisa and Bob thought of her. I loved those scenes after James returns to Oakdale and Barbara confronts him when she encounters him at Fashions. She tells him with a smirk that she’s no longer the doormat that she was when she was his wife, that she’s an even match for him now. James is mesmerized by the thought and tells her that he thinks she’s more beautiful now than ever. That sequence is an example of why I gravitated towards the soaps as a kid.

Today’s daytime soap writers claim that viewers don’t have the patience to watch a story build the way it used to when daytime soaps were at their zeniths. Viewers say the writers don’t have the skill set. Either way, I don’t see that type of storytelling happening again in daytime soaps. So many things have changed, most notably creative standards and the fundamental business model. 

[Vee]

I don't think Barbara's initial metamorphosis under Sheffer was so bad given the past (she is great as a vixen in Marland's run - viewers were crazy). CZ played it all to the hilt every time. I do think by the time she was leaping out of windows it had gotten ridiculous, and it's good they ultimately rolled her back.

[MarlandFan]

I loved Barbara once she transformed into the manipulative vixen in the mid-80s.  No longer a doormat, she became very 3-dimensional, capable of being both a vindictive bitch AND a kind. loyal friend.  I remember when Hank Elliot came out to her in 1988, her response was very matter-of-fact and loving. She told him that she had already guessed it and, being in the fashion industry, was very aware of -- and comfortable working with -- gay men.  She and Hank always had a very loving friendship.  She was also an early and strong supporter of Duncan and Jessica's relationship.  If you were ever going to war, you wanted Barbara Ryan on the front lines with you.

[NothinButAttitude]

I think her hopping out the window is where it went overboard. While CZ delivered and the scene is epic, it was too over the top. The vendetta she had against Rose, Emily, and Carly made perfect sense. I always felt that Babs saw three versions of herself in them. I think the plus side to it all was that it revitalized the importance of Barbara on the canvas. I just wish that Hogan would've been smart enough to utilize Kim and Lisa during that time as they were her two moral compasses. There should've been tons of material of them talking Barbara off the cliff. 

 

I've said too that ATWT missed out on the Lisa/Carly/Babs dynamic the last decade. They should've tossed the three into each other's orbit and had them form a fashion house, which consisted of a lot of comedic backstabbing and undermining one another while forming a sisterhood. I've always hated that Carly and Lisa's friendship was never repaired. 

[I Am A Swede]

Maybe I've been de-sensitized over the years, but if those really were her bitchiest moments then she wasn't really much of a vixen/bitch at all. I've seen so called heroines behave much worse.

[DRW50]

They're more shocking in context because she had been a perpetually long-suffering heroine before that point.

[I Am A Swede]

Oh I know the story and evolution of Barbara's character, and I'm sure it had more impact watching the show as a whole back then. But I just saw very little bitchiness from her in those clips. No real catty remarks, no innuendos, nothing like that. Even a goody two-shoes like Taylor on B&B was bitchier than that, even at the height of her saintly phase.

[DramatistDreamer]

The problem I have with these type of character videos is they neglect the impact from the actual storyline. You can’t get a true of Barbara in action with just a couple of scenes or one-liners. It has to be done through revelation of an actual story, so you can see how calculating Barbara was back then and how she did things, step by step to vex her rivals and those that she targeted. 
It would also be a mistake to look at the character through the lens of today’s daytime soaps, most of which don’t take the time to build characters and stories.

Many of Barbara’s most savage moments are contained in episodes that aren’t even posted on YouTube.

[I Am A Swede]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And the comparison I made with B&B is of course not really fair. Brad Bell can't compare with Doug Marland as a writer, and B&B is a very different show than ATWT. But it's the show I'm most familiar with.

[lilyredd]

Just a FYI, but Scott Bryce and Martha Byrne will join Alan Locher to pay tribute to Elizabeth Hubbard on August 16 at 3 pm. 

[DramatistDreamer]

I understand. I find myself trying to put myself in the position of others who weren’t watching the show at that time, who might not know or struggle to imagine what it felt like to have to wait months for Barbara to get her comeuppance for her latest scheme or to even wait from Friday afternoon until Monday, anticipating what we’ll see when an emboldened, assertive Barbara finally encounters the ex-husband who used to torture her. Back then writers seemed more adept at piecing together a character’s history and backstory and merging it with the evolved character in a way that made sense. Today, they’re more likely to scrap the character and make build a new one entirely, even if it confuses the viewer.

Ooh, wow, thanks @lilyredd.

I would love if they would bring back Peter Boynton and a few others to join.

I hope Locher adds some clips. I know many of the clips aren’t in great condition but he’s done it with GL and it really added to the discussion.

Larry Bryggman needs to be there too.

[Mitch64]

I liked the lead up to Babs going nuts..the explosion, her scars, feeling stupid that she let a man use her again like James did, and her isolation from her family and friends...with James pulling the strings when she moved into Fairwinds and manipulating her. But, she should have snapped out of it and eventually saved the women and they should have had her shoot James in his final moments he would laugh and say, "Now you are truly like me...I win!" and kill him once and for all (I can out sick Shefffer, I would have her bury him in her backyard put a patio down and then have a scene  LIsa, " Oh that horrible James I hope he never comes back."  Babs..smirking "Oh, maybe he finallyy went to hell and stayed there." That could have made her darker but not silly, OTT crazy selfish stupid that Sheffer made her.  Agreed that the disconnect was Kim, Bob and Lisa not even trying to get through to her and loosing that connection.

Agreed also on Lisa and Carly...Lisa always took in the strays and bad girls and she was supportive of other women (going back to her managing the bookstore and original Fashions days) Having Carly, Babs and Lisa giving each other [!@#$%^&*] but circling wagons when one was threatened was way past what Sheffer or Gautman could think of women.