12 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The Bomer interview reminded me of why I shouldn't put my feelings onto actors. I'd always wondered if he might have been as disgusted as I was, but of course he wouldn't be (and given his years working with slimy Ryan Murphy, I shouldn't be surprised). I watched Ben grow up and I was very attached to the character. It was just a 2-year gig for Bomer.

 

I realize this isn't quite the same thing, but I always experience similar feelings whenever I see actors like Susan Lucci praising Agnes Nixon (even though she didn't have anything to do with it) for writing the original story that introduced Erica's never-before-heard-of daughter, Kendall, on AMC; or DAYS' Deidre Hall going on and on about the "delicious" material HW's such as James E. Reilly and Ann Marcus have given her and her character to play.  (In case non-DAYS fans are reading: Reilly had Dr. Marlena Evans possessed by the devil, and Marcus had Marlena's twin sister kidnap her and take over her life while Marlena languished in a mental institution -- two stories (out of many) that longtime DAYS fans probably wish had never happened.)

 

"Well, I'm glad YOU had some fun with it," I always say, "but those of us out here who grew up with these shows and these characters and know what they would and would not do better than they probably know themselves?  Not so much."

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Khan

26 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

Frankly, I don't believe Ellen Weston was responsible for the Maryanne Caruthers mess.   I KNOW she was HW then, but I just don't believe she wrote that particular story.  Because, even though it contradicted everything we knew about Alan, Ed, Billy, Buzz and Josh's collective and individual histories -- something a newbie HW with no knowledge of a show's history is liable to do -- every, single bit of the MAC story was a blatant rip-off of other, past GL stories.  Right down to the casting of Nye (in a role that was, essentially, Miss Piper with a new name) and the "Hall of Mirrors" climax.  

 

So, if the MAC story WAS Weston's, then either it was a big, honking coincidence how it seemed to pay homage to GL's history (while simultaneously contradicting and retconning it), or EW knowingly pilfered from the show's history to "write" the "new" story and she thought she would get away with it.

 

Who do you think was behind the MAC story then? Do you think it was more of Conboy? 

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Nothin'ButAttitude

10 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

Who do you think was behind the MAC story then? Do you think it was more of Conboy? 

 

Personally, I think it was either David Kreizman or Jill Lorie Hurst.  Someone who knew enough about GL's history, or at least had read all the coffee table books enough times to be able to rehash it all for MAC.

 

At the time, I was active on several soaps-related boards; and on at least one of those boards, an insider (unidentified, but someone who was credible) revealed how Weston never played as much of a part in the writing as fans had been led to believe.  Even the stuff that HAD originated from her was sketchy, leaving her team of breakdown writers with the task of connecting all the dots and filling in the blank spaces (sound familiar, Dena Higley haters?).  Which is why, to this day, I defy anyone to make sense of Brad and Marie Green, or the Antimonious [!@#$%^&*].

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Khan

1 minute ago, Khan said:

 

Personally, I think it was either David Kreizman or Jill Lorie Hurst.  Someone who knew enough about GL's history, or at least had read all the coffee table books enough to be able to rehash it all for MAC.

 

Oh OK. So you think someone lower-tier pushed the story to Weston, who took it and ran with it? I could see that happening. If we had to choose between the 2 you selected, it is obvious Kreizman would be the culprit given his horrid writing as head writer following Weston.

10 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

So you think someone lower-tier pushed the story to Weston, who took it and ran with it?

 

I'll say this much: Weston might've had the idea to tie those five men into some "Ghost Story"-esque plot.  But that's all she probably had: a one-liner, based on a movie she remembered from years ago.  The actual blood-and-guts of the story, the parts that seemed to come from the previous tales, came from Kreizman and Hurst -- and probably because, they couldn't think of any other way to make it work.

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Khan

10 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

If we had to choose between the 2 you selected, it is obvious Kreizman would be the culprit given his horrid writing as head writer following Weston.

 

Remember when Kreizman and Ellen Wheeler finally decided to kill off Roger Thorpe?  People think Peter Simon's (Ed) refusal to return to the show in 2004 is why Kreizman's alleged big storyline for Blake, Holly and Sebastian tanked.  But even if PS had returned, does anyone really believe that a story that is supposed to tie up over three decades of history for Roger's ex-wife, daughter and nemesis, but somehow becomes all about Tony and Michelle and Michelle sucking some poison out of Tony's bare chest in the jungles of Santo Domingo will turn out to be anything but a dud?

 

To me, Gus and Harley's non-wedding and the start of "Spaulding BAD, Cooper GOOD" sentiment was the warning sign that Kreizman would be a terrible HW.  But the Blake/Holly/Sebastian/Tony/Michelle mess...?  That told me David Kreizman (and Ellen Wheeler) would be the one to trip over the cord and accidentally pull the plug on GL's life support machine.

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Khan

I love Ghost Story. But the blatant ripoff made absolutely no fuckin' sense with those men, and Carrie Nye being back in some new role was almost as ridiculous.

Conboy did a similar plot to MAC at Santa Barbara that's why people credit it to him and Weston. 

7 hours ago, Khan said:

 

I realize this isn't quite the same thing, but I always experience similar feelings whenever I see actors like Susan Lucci praising Agnes Nixon (even though she didn't have anything to do with it) for writing the original story that introduced Erica's never-before-heard-of daughter, Kendall, on AMC; or DAYS' Deidre Hall going on and on about the "delicious" material HW's such as James E. Reilly and Ann Marcus have given her and her character to play.  (In case non-DAYS fans are reading: Reilly had Marlena possessed by the devil, and Marcus had Dr. Marlena Evans' twin sister kidnap her and take over her life while Marlena languished in a mental institution -- two stories (out of many) that longtime DAYS fans probably wish had never happened.)

 

"Well, I'm glad YOU had some fun with it," I always say, "but those of us out here who grew up with these shows and these characters and know what they would and would not do better than they probably know themselves?  Not so much."

Interesting point.

 

I guess we have to acknowledge that many actors view their characters and stories very differently than viewers.

 

What might be challenging and interesting for them to play may not please many fans.

 

A lot of actors don't watch their own show and have no idea of how things come across onscreen and as part of the whole picture.

 

eg On Y&R Jess Walton loves working with Tristan Rogers and that's great but the Jill/Colin pairing and stories are awful

Watching this reminds me of Michael O'Leary's many jokes about the homoerotic relationship between Rick and Philip. The joke being that at times it didn't really feel like a joke...

 

 

8 hours ago, Vee said:

I love Ghost Story. But the blatant ripoff made absolutely no fuckin' sense with those men, and Carrie Nye being back in some new role was almost as ridiculous.

 

"Best" part of all, though, was that even GL itself couldn't decide WHEN the events leading up to Maryanne's death had occurred.  Supposedly, she died in 1977 -- at a time, I should add, when neither the Lewises nor the Coopers were visible, and when Alan and Ed WERE visible and heavily involved in story -- but different characters kept saying it happened over 30 years ago.  (Ellen Weston was HW from 2003-04.  So, you do the math.)  Moreover, even though the mess allegedly occurred in the late '70's, flashbacks to the night in question, as well as some weird sequence involving Marah, Marina, Michelle and their respective love interests, made it seem as if the murder had, in fact, occurred back in the '20's.

 

And then there were the whispers that Carrie Nye was hired not to play Maryanne's sister, but Maryanne herself, back from the dead and out for revenge.  Which might sound awesome, except, at age 67, she was seven years older than Peter Simon, the oldest of the five actors at the center of the story, and looked even older than that.

 

Honestly, it would have been more believable just to resurrect Susan Piper.

4 hours ago, ~bl~ said:

Conboy did a similar plot to MAC at Santa Barbara that's why people credit it to him and Weston. 

 

And I'd believe it.  Apparently, Conboy and Weston go way back -- back, at least, to when he hired her to play Suzanne Lynch on Y&R -- so it would not surprise me to hear that the two cooked up the initial idea for MAC.

Edited October 9, 20178 yr by Khan

 

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Watching this reminds me of Michael O'Leary's many jokes about the homoerotic relationship between Rick and Philip. The joke being that at times it didn't really feel like a joke...

 

 

I wouldn't have shocked me if they had become lovers. They had that great chemistry. I know they were more like brothers than friends. They were my favorite friendships on daytime tv.

For a long time, I defended Ellen Weston's work. I didn't think it was wonderful, but I didn't find it nearly as offensive as others. 

 

The Ben Reade stuff was highly melodramatic, which I do see now was out of tone with what the show typically did. I was more offended by the fans that said there was no way Ben Reade could have been molested because he had a father like Fletcher who would have known something was going on. Now, I can see why people would be upset that Ben, who they watched grew up, was a serial killer and there seemed to be a tacked on excuse that he was sexually abused. The abuse angle didn't bother me because I felt it explained some of Ben's sexual hang ups (the initial Marah plotline, the escort service). It wasn't handled with an ounce of sensitivity. I did like how Michelle and Bill were working on creating a hotline for troubled youth because of what happened to Ben, but that wasn't really featured a lot.  

 

I also find it odd that the show wrote it like Ben killed himself, but the scene was staged as if he was trying to kill Marina and had failed. Of course, then the show had Lizzie try and end her life... 

 

Trying to create a timeline for the Maryanne Carrouthers storyline was foolish as was the story idea itself. I did like that the show had an actual storyline. Often, Weston's work was just a bunch of vignettes that sometimes would, but mostly wouldn't, lead to short story arcs. There were things I liked: the introduction of Gus' mother, the C-storyline where the younger set was involved in a staging of Romeo & Juliet, and Olivia's lie about baby Emma. Rewatching clips of the Olivia story, I can see how the motivation, plotting, and individual writing was so much stronger once Conboy was out the door and Wheeler arrived. It's really a shame that the level of writing couldn't be maintained after Kriezman took over. 

 

Kriezman's problem was he bought into the hype too quickly. Tammy and Jonathan's initial story was fascinating, dark, and twisted. What followed was generic and basic. They really needed to address Jonathan's problematic history with Tammy rather than to sweep it under the rug. It didn't help when they just started throwing basic tropes at them (the crazy boyfriend, the meddling mother). I think the story where Lizzie got pregnant by Jonathan had the ability to be a bigger story, but the show catered too much to Tom Pelphrey and his constant comings and goings. I thought Jonathan keeping Sarah from Lizzie was atrocious, and I couldn't stand Marcy Rylan's interpretation. 

 

The Sebastian story had the ability to work, and I loved Doug Hutchison in that role. It's a shame that DH has made the life choices that he has made since leaving the show. I never understood the whole "We're scrapping it because PS won't come back." Simon may have been a wonderful actor, but he was hardly irreplaceable. The bigger issue was that Wheeler was producing a show with actors she couldn't afford to pay. Instead of trying to give Rick, Beth, Blake, and Mel stories once a month, I think someone should have made an investments in characters they could afford and that were interesting. So much of Kriezman/Wheeler was just so vanilla and lifeless or insane and over the top. 

 

Despite the ups and the downs, I found most of 2004 entertaining, but things just went off the rails by January 2005 for me when they basically decided to reshuffle the deck and drop stories and develop new ones. By the summer, I was fed up with the lame reveal to Phillip's murder, the pointless Harley in prison / Harley and Gus on the run storyline, and the decision to commit to Jonathan and Tammy as endgame without presenting a redemption storyline or treating their romance like the toxic relationship it was. 

9 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Watching this reminds me of Michael O'Leary's many jokes about the homoerotic relationship between Rick and Philip. The joke being that at times it didn't really feel like a joke...

 

I still want to see the infamous lamb scene, if it actually exists.