11 minutes ago, Khan said:

Because, why not, lol?

Seriously, I never bought Reva aspiring to be anything other than a very rich woman (who was married to a Lewis). In fact, I've always said that Miss Sally Gleason is who or what Reva should have become in the long run.

Same. Well, maybe not turning into Sally, but having no real ambition (or marketable skills, other than the obvious) other than being married. (And at the end, even ol' Jeff will do.) That's why, in my mind, she's never matriarch material, in spite of dropping a boatload of children on Springfield.

11 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Not to jump on this, but my biggest issue with the relationship is how it comes to define Vanessa, to the point of nothing being left of her. I did not hate Matt, but for someone who was a rough character when he met Vanessa, I thought he was sanctimonious. I also disliked the Matt/Dinah dynamics and how clear it was multiple regimes wanted them to sleep together but didn't have the guts to go through. And he's just not a compelling character. He could have been, with better writing, as I think Kurt was...OK when he got some tougher material later on (no spoilers), but the Matt we got was not that.

(this is just my opinion of course - I know they had a lot of fans and I don't remember ever hearing of them being crazy like some fan groups, other than driving Paul Rauch up the wall)

I didn't really care about who Vanessa ended up with in those years - my favorite Vanessa story (the custody battle over Peter) - had her alone. If she had gotten with someone I would have paired her with someone who was on her level of success, didn't feel threatened by her, could stand up to her, but also accept that she would push back on him. And someone with a good sense of humor as Vanessa, admittedly never a character prone to hilarity, needed that to balance her life.

(also someone who would not have sexual tension with Dinah - preferably, someone who would rather put her in a box and send her away)

I might have recast Justin Marler again. This would cause tension with Ross, as Justin was his brother, and they could bring back Sam, who would become like a daughter to Vanessa, causing tension with Dinah. I'd also be interested in seeing how Philip and Vanessa interacted due to Justin as I don't remember them ever being that involved in story.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

I don't like a lot about this era. The writing, the tone, the casting---not a lot of it feels like Guiding Light to me. (ATWT is also going through a rough patch. There's a malaise at P&G, apparently) As hard as they tried to give me reason to like ****, I never do. He's the equivalent of Chelsea, a Reardon-in-name-only. **** doesn't have any defining characteristics---he's simply written to be the working class schmo, of the Harlequin romance variety, who's going to heal Van's heart. It may not be KMcK's fault that's the way I see him (or that his character was written), but I also don't find anything about his acting that stands out. **** doesn't do anything. It's not his fault the relaunch of the Reardons fell flat, and both Nola and Bridget are gone leaving him with only Van's circle of family and friends to interact with. (and even that is sparse.) But it really makes him totally extraneous. A fact not lost years later on Wheeler, who pretty much consigns Matt to the dustbin and hell of being Dinah's occasional talk-to.

I wouldn't go as far as @DRW50 and say **** ends up defining Vanessa, but all he's really there to do is lecture Vanessa and make her feel insecure. Vanessa F-in Chamberlain knows herself, and doesn't need **** okaying when she goes back to work, or judging how much time she's spending with Maureen (newsflash, dickhead, babies crawl for months) or how she deals with Dinah. (The Vanessa I know would not have put up with Dinah's crap either, not when she'd raised Bill entirely differently, but whatever. I'd argue Dinah does a lot more to weaken and redefine Vanessa, while **** is just the parasite occupying Van's bed, but that's me.)

Vanessa had fought death off twice, **** can take his lifecoaching duties and shove them.

You're right---Jordan is not on a lot during this time. I don't think he's even formally recurring until after Maeve departs, as (I assume) TPTB have reestablished a trust in him, and Billy is there to anchor Bill (GL especially seems to believe any child needs at least one parent in town, if at all possible). At first they used him for the nostalgia factor, and sort of like a trump card when it made story sense. A lot of what went on with the clone didn't make sense, and wouldn't have worked if Billy had constantly been in town and questioning WTF was wrong with Reva.

The only realistic alternative at this time would've been Ross, but for multitudes of reasons, that wasn't possible. I would've cast someone new, a successful business man who would've challenged Van on multiple levels. I'm not sure Justin would've worked, as the OG Justin really wasn't a fan of Vanessa's either. Maybe this would've been the time to cast a suave Dietrich Lindsey to stir Springfield up and challenge Spaulding's media division. I can't really think of an established character from the past that would've worked.

Phillip and Vanessa's relationship is mostly a function of their work, in spite of the fact he was briefly married to her stepdaughter, the mother of his cousin and she was briefly engaged to his father. The only time they interact on a more direct level is when Roger is first worming his way into Spaulding. Vanessa is wary of Roger's influence on Blake, and tries warning Phillip, which he ignores. And when Roger manipulates Vanessa's firing, Phillip really stands up for her with Alexandra, to no avail.

1. Manny

2. Rassie

3. (or way down on the list) ***ressa fans who I don't recall being toxic, just simply vocal (and IMO, misguided) or at least able to convince TIIC they were. How the network's smallest viewership manipulated SID polls to consistently get them and later Manny in the top five was always a bit fishy.

Very interesting perspectives and thank you! Mine is probably different right now because I don't have the longer-term history with these characters like you both do. I started when Vanessa and Matt got together and were in pure bliss having each other. Part of what I assume made them popular then was that an older woman fell in love with a handsome young man and he loved her back. I bet many women watching the soap were probably putting themselves in Vanesa's shoes and fantasizing about living that life. Perhaps a projection, but even I'm starting to feel that way as I get older LOL.

I also like how he was sort of reformed from his male prostitute days, and I LOVED that Vanessa supported him and didn't let Amanda/Dinah get to her with the news of his past. That was a power move. I do love Vanessa usually, and this may be controversial, but she has made some weird/wild decisions that I still can't understand fully. I know it's the writing, but letting her family think she was dead was wild to me (even though exciting for TV), and then letting Peter move away like it was no big deal (although I do understand that she just wants him safe and happy in the end). I do hate that the writers took out Bridget and Peter when Hart was still in town and Vanessa just came back to SF from almost dying. So many lost opportunities.

Part of me wonders if they could have used Matt instead of Ben. Pair him up with Blake in some way which brings Vanessa and Ross closer as they deal with their spouses cheating on them? But you're all right - with Amanda gone, they haven't really given Matt anyone to connect with except Josh, and Vanessa/Dinah of course. I don't think Matt and Beth have a ton of chemistry right now, but it makes me wonder who else he would have chemistry with, like with perhaps Blake.

I love the idea of a new powerful businessman coming in and getting with Vanessa. That could have also been fun to watch her struggle with having feelings for him, yet loving her younger blue-collar husband too.

In the end, I'm just happy Matt didn't give into Dinah in her first year, as hard as she tried. I also love how he sees through her BS. That's one thing I don't love about Vanessa - she always comes back to Dinah and turns a blind eye. I get being her mother, but I still wish she would put her in her place more and stand firm that he behavior is ridiculous and unacceptable with her.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Because, why not, lol?

Seriously, I never bought Reva aspiring to be anything other than a very rich woman (who was married to a Lewis). In fact, I've always said that Miss Sally Gleason is who or what Reva should have become in the long run.

I think Zimmer, if she could put her ego aside for once would have enjoyed playing that!

21 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

I do love Vanessa usually, and this may be controversial, but she has made some weird/wild decisions that I still can't understand fully. I know it's the writing, but letting her family think she was dead was wild to me (even though exciting for TV), and then letting Peter move away like it was no big deal (although I do understand that she just wants him safe and happy in the end). I do hate that the writers took out Bridget and Peter when Hart was still in town and Vanessa just came back to SF from almost dying. So many lost opportunities.

Part of me wonders if they could have used Matt instead of Ben. Pair him up with Blake in some way which brings Vanessa and Ross closer as they deal with their spouses cheating on them?

I love the idea of a new powerful businessman coming in and getting with Vanessa. That could have also been fun to watch her struggle with having feelings for him, yet loving her younger blue-collar husband too.

That's one thing I don't love about Vanessa - she always comes back to Dinah and turns a blind eye. I get being her mother, but I still wish she would put her in her place more and stand firm that he behavior is ridiculous and unacceptable with her.

Historically, Vanessa was always someone who sought to manipulate people and felt the need for control. It's why her relationships with Ross, Ed, Mark and Tony fail. (Well, Tony is never really more than a string of one-night stands, but still, she gets weirdly obsessed with him during the revolving writer debacle of between Marland and Long) As Billy says when they meet, what they both like most is having things their own way.

So, I partially understood why she was more than horrified at the prospect of becoming some kind of vegetable (and Rick, with the bedside manner of a clod makes it sound as terrible as possible). The Peter situation I took with more than a grain of salt, as Vanessa would've done what was best for Peter, and in my mind, kept in contact with him off-screen. Especially as she was now also his aunt.

**** and Blake would've been a much more understandable and relatable fling than bringing in asshat Ben, Ross' secret unknown brother. RME. (Much like ATWT's Bob and Susan, who screwed when Kim and John were preoccupied with Andy's alcoholism)

Admittedly, Vanessa had a blindspot when it came to Bill too, when he was younger. The change in Dinah never made much sense, although it drove a lot of story through the years. Much more (arguably) than Reva's pretty much wholesome and (inexplicably) well-adjusted children. Other than Jonathan.

Van does finally stand up to Dinah, but it's not until Tognoni takes over. And even then, there are times when Vanessa just doesn't get to say much about either Dinah or Bill's behavior in those last few seasons. She's there doing a lot of cheerleading for Dinah, which she mostly doesn't deserve. STILL.

Edited 14 minutes ago14 min by P.J.