i have no doubt that each soap has kept an eye on what the competition is up to and planned storypoints to counterprogram.

Some things I can recall off hand

Way back in 65 or 66 ATWT had a lavish (for the time) wedding for David and Ellen, the culmination of years of story for those two.

It happened at the same time that ABC was making a big push into daytime by scheduling Ben Casey reruns up against ATWT. CBS made sure that any viewers tempted to watch Ben would want to miss that wedding.

In 82 when Capitol debuted, OLTL had a plot including locations in Washington to satisfy any viewers interested in Washington intrigue.

When Irna Phillips was ready to debut A World Apart, SFT had Jo in an accident and hovering b/w life and death on the Friday before. Irna sent them a message of congratulations for timing that plot to ensure viewers stuck with Search.

The Robert Calhoun tenure was highly underrated. I know this was a thread a while back, but I also feel that JFP gets too much credit for turning around GL when GL was in good shape despite what she has said in interviews.

JFP likes stunts. She likes killing off or attacking women on her shows. In her world, women are expendable if it means paying for a male actor. She wanted Justin Deas, and looked for ways to free up money. If Maureen's death lured SB viewers away, it was a bonus. I remember Marcy Walker talking about how she felt JFP used her on GL to keep her (JFP's) job. It wouldn't surprise if the whole point of Maureen's death was to keep her employed by bringing on Justin Deas and it had nothing to do with SB or GH.

 

Edited January 19, 20233 yr by chrisml

14 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

i have no doubt that each soap has kept an eye on what the competition is up to and planned storypoints to counterprogram.

This is the stuff that fascinates me when we look back at the history of the soaps.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about the choice to kill off Maureen, (with predictably regurgitated opinions of JFP).  What I am interested in is the context of how the history played out for the audience at home.  Because when I see one of those "this day in soap history" articles I am constantly amazed at how many crucial events occurred on some random Friday in March.  And, it always entices me to search for what the other soaps were doing at the same time, and how they were either copying each other, or trying to steal away viewers.

Like Alan Spaulding escaping to Tenerife on the day of Luke & Laura's wedding or Reva's introduction happening around the time of Laura's return (and the subsequent exit of Luke and Laura) in 1983.  It's so fun to know which stories were being programmed against each other.

Edited January 19, 20233 yr by j swift

14 hours ago, j swift said:

This is the stuff that fascinates me when we look back at the history of the soaps.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about the choice to kill off Maureen, (with predictably regurgitated opinions of JFP).  What I am interested in is the context of how the history played out for the audience at home.  Because when I see one of those "this day in soap history" articles I am constantly amazed at how many crucial events occurred on some random Friday in March.

I don't think viewers at the time think of these events the way we do because we have history on our side.  I don't think many GL fans cared about the SB cancellation so there would be little need to counterprogram against the last days of SB. Would a SB viewer who continued to watch through the Rauch/Long era really stop watching the end of SB to see Maureen die? Was there overlap between SB and GL viewers considering how difficult it would be at the time to watch both shows? The SB viewers certainly did not flock to GL after its cancellation even when Marcy Walker was brought on the show.

On 1/18/2023 at 4:49 PM, DRW50 said:

The biggest problem with the writing for Josh was that most of the time he was written as a sanctimonious [!@#$%^&*] and not much else. There were times they tried different roles for him, like when he decided to become a minister, but mostly he was only there to judge. 

That March 1988 episode was a reminder of how much Pam Long understood the Reva/Josh relationship (given that she created it) in a way later writers didn't. Later writers had Reva obsessing and striving and Josh being shut down and cold, while it should have been both of them in mutual toxicity. The scene at the end of that episode where Josh tells his pregnant wife that if Reva dies, he will never get over it, is truly a disturbing moment, and to the show's credit, it's treated as such. There is an honesty you got less and less of in GL's last two decades.

When Reva drove off the bridge, they did play up Josh's intense grief over It...locking himself in his room, etc.  And he didn't deal with the grief, he did transference of his feelings to Harley.

And he up and left with the kids because of a possible sighting of Reva on an Italian travel show.  No one in their right mind would have done that.

And he cloned Reva in 1998 after she was presumed dead because he couldn't bear to be without Reva..original and clone versions.

Difference in that scenario is that the writing tried to make him sympathetic and Reva unreasonable for being upset with Josh for cloning her.

3 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Difference in that scenario is that the writing tried to make him sympathetic and Reva unreasonable for being upset with Josh for cloning her.

That's it exactly, and is why stories like that feel so inauthentic. In later years, Josh was always meant to be good and right with zero layers.

17 hours ago, j swift said:

Like Alan Spaulding escaping to Tenerife on the day of Luke & Laura's wedding or Reva's introduction happening around the time of Laura's return (and the subsequent exit of Luke and Laura) in 1983.  It's so fun to know which stories were being programmed against each other.

Speaking of Alan, his return on Friday, July 18, 1986*, coincided with Duke and Anna having sex for the first time on General Hospital and Mason lashing out at Mark, Julia and C.C. in the wake of Mary's death (which was the Friday cliffhanger the week before) on Santa Barbara.

*The day after that year's Daytime Emmys.

This '88 episode sounds intriguing. Is any of it strike material or am I off on the year?

8 minutes ago, Vee said:

This '88 episode sounds intriguing. Is any of it strike material or am I off on the year?

I think the strike material starts around April 1988, or a little earlier (a partial May episode popped up on the same channel, one right before Philip humiliates and destroys Alan, and I figure it it is strike material because of the unnecessary flashbacks to pad out the episode). There are also some excellent scenes with Alex and Alan in the March episode. It's near the bottom of page 738.

Edited January 19, 20233 yr by DRW50

23 hours ago, chrisml said:

The Robert Calhoun tenure was highly underrated. I know this was a thread a while back, but I also feel that JFP gets too much credit for turning around GL when GL was in good shape despite what she has said in interviews.

I think that's because ratings dropped during Robert Calhoun's run and JFP first year got the ratings up, but as we know the momentum didn't last and JFP did long-term damage that GL never recovered from.

Can anyone more knowledgeable than me break down the whole timeline of events around '94-'95 with Cynthia Watros' initial story and Kim Zimmer's two returns?

I was always under the impression that Watros was hired to be Robert Newman's love interest in earnest, with the show originally intending to fully commit to Josh and Annie. (I didn't know she debuted as early as December '94.) I think this was under JFP? Who'd already watched Josh tank with Tangie Hill/Marcy Walker. Anyway, I know they did a very bizarre comic story in which Reva's ghost turns up and antagonizes Josh and Annie and then I guess maybe gives them her blessing? And that this was allegedly intended by JFP to only be a short run, but months later Kim was asked back for real? Presumably by the new EP?

I guess what I'm curious about is: How long were they actually committed to Josh and Annie, what was the timetable like or creative turnover involved and when was the decision made to bring back Reva for real and start dirtying Annie up?

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by Vee

5 hours ago, Vee said:

Can anyone more knowledgeable than me break down the whole timeline of events around '94-'95 with Cynthia Watros' initial story and Kim Zimmer's two returns?

I was always under the impression that Watros was hired to be Robert Newman's love interest in earnest, with the show originally intending to fully commit to Josh and Annie. (I didn't know she debuted as early as December '94.) I think this was under JFP? Who'd already watched Josh tank with Tangie Hill/Marcy Walker. Anyway, I know they did a very bizarre comic story in which Reva's ghost turns up and antagonizes Josh and Annie and then I guess maybe gives them her blessing? And that this was allegedly intended by JFP to only be a short run, but months later Kim was asked back for real? Presumably by the new EP?

I guess what I'm curious about is: How long were they actually committed to Josh and Annie, what was the timetable like or creative turnover involved and when was the decision made to bring back Reva for real and start dirtying Annie up?

From what I recall Annie was recurring and was made a contract role.  Her backstory was confusing because she mentioned an abusive ex possibly being out on parole..then it came out she was a recovered alcoholic when she went to a meeting Ed was at.

In fact, when it came out she and Rick had been married in the past, Ed was hurt she never told him.

So while Annie was being fully formed/developed, Josh was being tested with some of the women (Jenna, Holly, Lucy...and some viewers believed he was being tested with Vanessa in early to mid 1994).

I think Annie was thrown with him as a test..and they had chemistry so the show went with it.  Their conflicts were initially the kids (because Josh was going to declare Reva as dead), Hawk and spirit Reva (originally it was written she was just a figment of his imagination, and then it turned into her being a ghost).

I also remember when spirit Reva was leaving..she was walking toward a light of sorts..she stopped and paused then it cut away.

I think McTavish was head writer when Reva came back the 2nd time and they were trying to figure out how to do so...and I don't remember how they did it but I think she had been in a coma..or had hit her head so she was a wandering spirit..but I don't remember 100 %.

Until 1997, Reva/Josh and Annie/Josh fans were 50/50 till they made her crazy.  Before she went crazy, some fans wanted her with Philip (they had good chemistry) when he came back in 1996.

Oh yeah, I sort of remember the writer's strike during that year. Last thing I remember was someone wearing a black glove and had a gun and turned on a light bulb. After that episode, it was like a totally different show and it went full throttle too. And I mean full throttle. It was wild and sickening. I lived for it too! 

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by Noel

41 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

From what I recall Annie was recurring and was made a contract role.  Her backstory was confusing because she mentioned an abusive ex possibly being out on parole..then it came out she was a recovered alcoholic when she went to a meeting Ed was at.

In fact, when it came out she and Rick had been married in the past, Ed was hurt she never told him.

So while Annie was being fully formed/developed, Josh was being tested with some of the women (Jenna, Holly, Lucy...and some viewers believed he was being tested with Vanessa in early to mid 1994).

I think Annie was thrown with him as a test..and they had chemistry so the show went with it.  Their conflicts were initially the kids (because Josh was going to declare Reva as dead), Hawk and spirit Reva (originally it was written she was just a figment of his imagination, and then it turned into her being a ghost).

I also remember when spirit Reva was leaving..she was walking toward a light of sorts..she stopped and paused then it cut away.

I think McTavish was head writer when Reva came back the 2nd time and they were trying to figure out how to do so...and I don't remember how they did it but I think she had been in a coma..or had hit her head so she was a wandering spirit..but I don't remember 100 %.

Until 1997, Reva/Josh and Annie/Josh fans were 50/50 till they made her crazy.  Before she went crazy, some fans wanted her with Philip (they had good chemistry) when he came back in 1996.

The years of Reva's "death" became even more of a mess later due to the San Cristobel story, but at the time I think the line was that she had been in a coma for some time. She woke up and lived as an Amish woman (wasn't she called Sarah?) in Goshen, until Alan ended up finding her there when his car broke down or he was hiding away from his family. 

Annie didn't start going crazy until after McTavish was out. The interim writers had Josh and Reva nearly reunite at Cross Creek. Annie cut up her diaphragm and went nuts. Reva was married to Buzz at the time, and he somewhat graciously broke up with her, over her objections, as he realized he was never going to be able to compete with Josh. (the show was bringing Jenna back in this same period)

Kim Zimmer had a fascinating interview around late 1995 or so with Soap Opera Weekly where she addressed never becoming a "star" after leaving GL, a demoralizing guest stint on Models Inc, her extremely tense relationship with Pam Long at the time she left GL (she said that at a lunch to try to get the two of them on common ground, a P&G executive left the table to be sick because the two of them were so hostile toward each other), and her initial attempts to meet with JFP about returning to GL, only to be told by her that the show had moved on from Reva.

Edited January 20, 20233 yr by DRW50

All I remember about Kim on Models Inc. (where I had never seen her before at that point) was a grim series of scenes in a restaurant or bar with the scuzzy boyfriend of Teresa Hill's character. I would love to see that interview.