And can someone, ANYONE, explain to me why Jack is acting the way he is? WHY is Jack so pathetic? I still haven't seen an story beats or characterization explaining this at all -- just fanwanks from us folks online.

I'm not sure I understand the question, but here's how I see Jack right now, as the writers have written him. Post-John's death, Jack's stepped up into the shoes of the patriarch of the family. He's still the Jack that will scheme against Victor (i.e., the diary and Adam), but in his newfound role as patriarch, he's discovering the joys of family. They've had scenes between Jack/John about this, so that's not fanwanking. He's in love with Sharon and wants to be with Sharon. I'm not sure if you're looking for a motivation over why he's in love with Sharon, but I never look for motivation why anybody falls in love with anybody else. Hell, I can't figure out why half my friends are in love with the people they're in love with. LOL! Anyway, Jack is in love with Sharon, but this is still the same cad who's more than happy to have a little fun. When Sharon left him, Jack did what Jack does - went out and had a little fun (too bad he picked the wrong person). He was upfront and said "We're just two adults having a good time", which was pretty honest for Jack. And MJ said she understood. (She didn't, but she was very clear to Jack that she knew it was nothing serious.) When Jack learned his wife wanted him back, he cut off ties with MJ.

Now he wants to step in, be the hero for Sharon. Raise this baby, no matter whose it is. But he knows Nick is always a threat (again, not fanwanking. We've seen Jack always know Sharon's love for Nick is a threat, so no matter how noble Jack is and how appreciative Sharon is, all Nick does is say "I love you, Sharon" and Sharon rushes to his side.) And there's nothing Jack can do about this, and it drives him nuts. So in typical Jack-fashion, he does the self-destructive thing and keeps schtupping Mary Jane on the side. (Which is interesting, since he's basically put Mary Jane in the position Diane was in back when Jack was married to Patty - as the other woman he's having fun with, but that's besides the point.)

The fanwanker in me also likes to think Jack wants to hit the "Restart" button on fatherhood since Keemo and Kyle aren't part of his life. But I won't go there - we're just talking about what the writers are showing on-camera.

I don't really see him as pathetic. I just see him as confused and flawed. But then again, I'm a big Jack Abbott fan so I'm a little biased. I understand Jack a HELL of a lot more than I understand Nick. If anybody can explain to me Nick's character right now, I'd be one happy puppy.

CE is a boyish man, MM is a mannish man. No argument. But the writing to date has been for Adam the boy-man. TPTB need to take Adam in a different direction with the recast.

This is totally true - just don't forget that when MM stepped into the role, the next eight or nine weeks of scripts after his first episode were already written (with CE in the role, in the writers' minds). So whatever change we see in Adam's character with the recast won't show up on-screen until the end of summer/beginning of fall.

She saw what she thought was a dead woman on the stairs, then she grabbed the veil and saw Adam. Either event was unexpected for her and shocking. I still say Adam's regret does not fly with me because he set up a situation where Ashley was likely to fall. Add on top of that the fact Adam is allowing a molester to be Ashley's OB/GYN and is still tormenting her,so him trying to make excuses for what he did to Ashley rings hollow.

Ashley is the one who he is hurting both physically and emotionally. Victor and Jack aren't even being vctimized at this point because they don't know what Ashley has been put through via Adam. Adam is a weak person and always has been, but this plot to get back at Victor and Jack is just dumb because Jack barely spends any time with Ashley and as Adam has witnessed when Victor replaced Ashley with Sabrina and his own experience with his mother, it's not like Victor has difficulty replacing women and children he has lost.

I agree. I don't think I can ever believe Jack and Victor are being targeted in this because women and kids are a dime a dozen to Victor, and Jack has barely been in the story.

I thought CE played the part of a bitter, lost young man very well. I don't know if we're supposed to have sympathy for Adam, if MM is supposed to be playing a more sympathetic version, but after what he's done I think they won't go for sympathy. I think he's just supposed to be a weak man.

What's the point of having two Y&R threads when the same sh-t is posted in both?

Sorry, but you don't see the other soaps doing that for the PROS/CONS of their soaps. Shouldn't there just be one central thread in the Love/Hate section instead of this stupidity?

No. We're discussing the episode: the monologue, the "chemistry", peanuts & Mary Jane.

Yeah, that was exactly my point when I took off for a few weeks. I just had to get away from the same four posts posted over and over and over again. I loved the postings last night - to be able to debate and discuss and see all of the different viewpoints and perspectives. It was lively without anybody feeling like they were wrong for not seeing something another person's way.

The critics of the "same four posts" also post the same four posts as a reply. Both parties are guilty.

This is totally true - just don't forget that when MM stepped into the role, the next eight or nine weeks of scripts after his first episode were already written (with CE in the role, in the writers' minds). So whatever change we see in Adam's character with the recast won't show up on-screen until the end of summer/beginning of fall.

Agreed. I think we will see a change in the character's direction soon enough.

I do predict though that either Mary Jane or Adam will be killed off for a November murder mystery. Now that MJ poisoned Summer, she's going have a zillion enemies. Which one will bite the bullet though?

Edited June 27, 200916 yr by cara mia

CE is a boyish man, MM is a mannish man. No argument. But the writing to date has been for Adam the boy-man. TPTB need to take Adam in a different direction with the recast. MM will not work with YG's Rafe and VB's Bloom. Rafe is a boy-man, Heather is a girl-woman. They look a decade younger than MM's Adam. TPTB need to put Adam into a new orbit with Mary Jane and P3 and other thirty/forty-something characters. Besides, why is Adam wasting his time with non-entities like Rafe & Heather? The show is too bloated and too cast heavy. TPTB need to streamline and just focus on core characters.

Rafe and Heather are so supplementary, anyway, and Bloom's been put on recurring (along with Marcille- probably to keep MTS on contract) so I doubt we'll see much of these two after this s/l is over. It's a shame for Rafe, because Gellman's really good, IMO, and it'd be nice to see a gay character on Y&R. Yes, just to see a gay character on Y&R.

I don't see his age difference from CE being a big issue. Look at Jack and Sharon

and Phyllis and Nick.

But even in an episode thread, posters can be critical of current stories. I believe Y&R should and can be better than what they are doling out. If one likes what they are selling great, but where the show was much praised late last year and early this year, now many are criticising the show. That should say something to the writers.

No, I agree with you. Why not just be critical in one thread, and still discuss episodes, instead of having two threads doing the exact same thing? It's pretty obvious that the weekly Y&R threads are not going to be a blissful place (and I'm fine with that, it shouldn't be), but having two threads doesn't make sense, when it's pretty much repeated here. Yes, the repetition is annoying "MAB and her cronies suck ad nausem," but then put that in the Love/Hate section.

Lets get back to criticizing the show instead of each other.....

The critics of the "same four posts" also post the same four posts as a reply. Both parties are guilty.

I totally agree, Sylph. I said that in my original post too (which I'm too lazy to re-post now). The same two people post the same criticisms over and over again, and the same two people post the same defense arguments over and over again. And it's boring to read for thirty pages - the actual episode discussion got lost.

Like Greg'sGL said, I'm all for discussing and critiquing the shows on a day-to-day basis. What's working and what's not working. But reading 23 posts about how MAB isn't "a storyteller" and then 23 posts saying "the show is much better than anything else on daytime" and then another 18 posts about how "that doesn't mean it's good", and then another 16 about how it's better than LML or Kay Alden... anyway, you get the point. My personal preference is always to discuss the actual episodes. But I also understand the frustration with two threads, since Y&R is the only soap that has this right now.

I'm not sure I understand the question, but here's how I see Jack right now, as the writers have written him. Post-John's death, Jack's stepped up into the shoes of the patriarch of the family. He's still the Jack that will scheme against Victor (i.e., the diary and Adam), but in his newfound role as patriarch, he's discovering the joys of family. They've had scenes between Jack/John about this, so that's not fanwanking. He's in love with Sharon and wants to be with Sharon. I'm not sure if you're looking for a motivation over why he's in love with Sharon, but I never look for motivation why anybody falls in love with anybody else. Hell, I can't figure out why half my friends are in love with the people they're in love with. LOL! Anyway, Jack is in love with Sharon, but this is still the same cad who's more than happy to have a little fun. When Sharon left him, Jack did what Jack does - went out and had a little fun (too bad he picked the wrong person). He was upfront and said "We're just two adults having a good time", which was pretty honest for Jack. And MJ said she understood. (She didn't, but she was very clear to Jack that she knew it was nothing serious.) When Jack learned his wife wanted him back, he cut off ties with MJ.

Now he wants to step in, be the hero for Sharon. Raise this baby, no matter whose it is. But he knows Nick is always a threat (again, not fanwanking. We've seen Jack always know Sharon's love for Nick is a threat, so no matter how noble Jack is and how appreciative Sharon is, all Nick does is say "I love you, Sharon" and Sharon rushes to his side.) And there's nothing Jack can do about this, and it drives him nuts. So in typical Jack-fashion, he does the self-destructive thing and keeps schtupping Mary Jane on the side. (Which is interesting, since he's basically put Mary Jane in the position Diane was in back when Jack was married to Patty - as the other woman he's having fun with, but that's besides the point.)

The fanwanker in me also likes to think Jack wants to hit the "Restart" button on fatherhood since Keemo and Kyle aren't part of his life. But I won't go there - we're just talking about what the writers are showing on-camera.

I don't really see him as pathetic. I just see him as confused and flawed. But then again, I'm a big Jack Abbott fan so I'm a little biased. I understand Jack a HELL of a lot more than I understand Nick. If anybody can explain to me Nick's character right now, I'd be one happy puppy.

This is my problem -- raise the baby even if it's Nick's?! WHAT THE WHAT?! Why? I understand Nick being willing to raise Jack's baby because Nick has "decided" that Sharon is real true love as of five minute ago. But Jack knows that Sharon's heart is with another and yet he still wants to raise another man's baby? WHAT? Why doesn't he just adopt a baby if he wants one so bad. It's ridiculous.

I kinda dig the ruggish look of MM. He does have some hard facial features, but I dig that. Most of the men on canvas look too soft anyways.

I don't see his age difference from CE being a big issue. Look at Jack and Sharon

and Phyllis and Nick.

Whoa, I can see it all. LoL.

This is my problem -- raise the baby even if it's Nick's?! WHAT THE WHAT?! Why? I understand Nick being willing to raise Jack's baby because Nick has "decided" that Sharon is real true love as of five minute ago. But Jack knows that Sharon's heart is with another and yet he still wants to raise another man's baby? WHAT? Why doesn't he just adopt a baby if he wants one so bad. It's ridiculous.

Ahhh - now I'm with you. Yeah, i got nothin'. LOL! Everything else makes sense to me, but yeah - they dropped the ball on explaining that part of it.

But other than that motivational flaw, I really do understand Jack in this quad. I even understand Phyllis and Sharon. But Nick - man, the writers really screwed up with him on this one. I can explain away the other three (well - except for the one thing you pointed out about Jack raising the baby if it's not his) - but I can't even try to fanwank Nick's character away right now. That's how bad it is.

I kinda dig the ruggish look of MM. He does have some hard facial features, but I dig that. Most of the men on canvas look too soft anyways.

Absolutely.