ATWT: Week of January 12, 2009

[Actor87]

Does anyone have a clip of the cop-out?

[MarkH]

While I disagree with calling it a cop out, I embedded clips of it upstream, in this thread

See here.

[Soapsuds]

Tell me what you think Dusty.

Glad you liked it Mark. I hope you continue to post on the ATWT threads. I didnt like it. But that doesnt mean we cant get along and post together here on the ATWT threads.

[Soapsuds]

http://casiello.blogspot.com/2009/01/doin-...in-it-well.html

Tom Casiello's view about the "sex" between Nuke. Followed by some comments. Some from SON posters.

[SteveFrame]

What I don't understand though is why is this called a cop out when so many of the other scenes in particular the two with Nick from Days of Our Lives as I talked about.

Those were called bad scenes or bad judgement but not cop outs. And they showed even less than the Nuke scenes did.

I would have liked to have seen them in bed together like AMC showed Reese & Bianca but I still call this a cop out - just a different interpretation of what I wanted to see.

What we got yesterday based on the way daytime has been doing things the last few years is what I expected and it is what I got. I didn't have high expectations about it.

The biggest thing I am shocked about is the actual lack of promotion for it. This could have been a sweeps event type thing, but ATWT didn't go the publicity route for it. It was a nice surprise for me.

[Soapsuds]

What was there to promote? In my opinion the Nuke supposedly sex scenes were a cop out. Everyone has their own opinion about it. The Nuke fans are jumping over the moon. I just didnt see anything special from that one show. It was the same drivel with Nuke. They fight and they kissed. No biggie...nothing really new was shown.

They still are stale and boring as hell. They had no real relationship. They were just copied and pasted together..LOL.

[quartermainefan]

It wasn't a cop out. It was a milestone because it is the first time this ever happened on a US soap. It's no more a cop out than Capt Kirk kissing Lt Uhura being the first interracial kiss on TV is a cop out. It is one for the record books people will cite forever just the way they do Kirk and Uhura, or Diahann Carroll being the first black woman to front her own sitcom, or Erica Kane getting the first abortion. Now there is Noah and Luke. Of course Nuke fans are happy. We have every reason to be. How anyone can say nothing new was shown is mind boggling. If you know of two gay male frontburning soap characters that have had an ongoing examination where neither is a prissy punchline like Elton on GH, or a psycho lunatic like Nora's husband on OLTL, please provide the clips of their relationship and their love scenes.

[SteveFrame]

I don't mean this to be harsh or hateful, but I just hate that word supposedly in regards to this.

It's as if since we didn't see that there was no sex at all. If that is to be taken literally then everything that doesn't take place on the screen right in front of us didn't happen. It just supposedly happened.

So I guess Hal Munson supposedly died since it happened offscreen. I guess Marshall Travers supposedly died since all we saw was bonnie push him and then later they said he died.

How far do we take this? everything that happens offscreen on any soap now just supposedly happened or was a cop out?

I mean today many many things happen offscreen on soaps. they do that because of this new pace they won't to keep.

[SteveFrame]

I don't see calling it a cop out or saying it supposedly happens is any better than the Nuke fanatics going overboard with it.

I see two extremes on the boards on this. I see the Nuke haters criticizing it just for the sake of criticizing it. And I see the Nuke fanatics praising it as if it was the greatest thing that ever happened.

It was a milestone. It could have been better. But it could have never happened at all. I appreciate it for what it was. They didn't get treated any worse yesterday than straight couples on soaps and they didn't get treated any better.

The couple still sucks. They still need a lot of work.

But the scene was still a milestone. It is somewhere I wondered if we would ever see a soap like ATWT go. They did and I am happy about it.

[Actor87]

Wow. That really WAS a cop-out. ITA with Casiello. ATWT tries to boast this as any other beautiful, well-written love story, but they won't even show anything besides making out?

All we saw for the supposed sex scene was just a combination of the make-out scenes we've been seeing and a basic re-hash of the summer's "longing shirtless glance".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvquyHKdzgE

PLUS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebo7pHKxzI0 (5:03)

EQUALS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en9Kx6SrlCI

[SteveFrame]

But Casiello was part of the writing staff that wrote Nick and Chelsea on Days the very same way. All of their first time took place OFF SCREEN.

[brimike]

He's also talked about how that was a load of cr@p and it pissed him off at the time too.

[MarkH]

If I want to watch sex -- gay or straight -- I can find lots of porn on this here old internet.

So, soap sex is ... well ... usually hokey. At its WORST, it is arched backs and sweaty brows and treacly music.

I'm not saying, sometimes, that can't be remarkable to see, but for the most part, I'll pass.

Most of soap sex is off screen. Every married couple on soaps gets to have their sex off screen. And that's fine. I really don't need to to see Tom and Margo grunting away fortnightly, or however often they do it .

One of my enduring frustrations about fan reaction to Nuke (and this is INDEPENDENT of the general view of the writing of this show) is that it truly is A NO WIN SITUATION. In a country where the MAJORITY voted down equal rights for gay marriage in three populous states last November, for us to ignore the context in which this story plays out is ... naive. I suspect there is a lot of overlap, for example, between the population that voted against gay marriage and the population that watches P&G soaps.

This was Nuke's FIRST sex.

The threshold has been crossed.

Now, EVERY TIME we see those men on screen, America will know that they have seen each other naked, in a lustful way. That new reality suffuses every scene. That is DIFFERENT. That is ground breaking. That is what Monday opened. Two men who are explicitly sexual with each other, on the front burner. Now, when they touch, we will know it is a "knowing" touch...and like Tom and Margo or -- heck -- most days Brad and Katie -- we know they'll follow up on the "touch" later. No longer is this denied.

Once the conservatives catch their breath and stop their puking (men having SEX! how AWFUL!), the next sex scene (whenever it happens) could well be shirtless in bed together kissing. Who knows? Who cares? Again, if we want to see two men in flagrante delicto....well...there are other sites for that.

This is commercial TV! It plays to all kinds of warped and conservative sensibilities. How often are African American characters (the few who exist) given those arched-back scenes? How often are characters over 40 given those scenes? There are all kinds of racist, sexist, ageist and homophobic sensibilities that are being 'considered' as these soaps get put out...that's the reality of an advertiser-supported medium that needs to appeal to the "minivan majority" (ugh).

The fact remains....we KNOW, and we cannot deny, that two men now exist in Oakdale who related to one another fully as loving and sexual beings. That is ENORMOUS. I cannot believe people aren't just jaw-droppingly astounded at how ENORMOUS this is.

Lesbianism has been "okay" longer. Michael Moore argued that gay marriage wouldn't be an issue if it were just for women . He said guys all over the country would vote to see "hot chicks doing each other". Gay male sexuality is truly the last taboo. The wall has been breached.

Why can't this be celebrated for what it is...Step 2. There are plenty more steps to come...with Nuke, and elsewhere?

The passion I saw Monday, when Noah finally finally let down his wall and his caution, and forcefully kissed Luke, and finally resolved to ACT and not DENY...well...let's just say that moment felt pretty real to me.

And another thing! Roger Newcomb has a growing list of all the media sites that covered the Nuke sex. Mainstream sites, and finally emphasis on something positive, romantic, envelope-pushing. Remember what the LAST mainstream stories were? Dee and Drake fired! Susan Lucci's 50% cut! Car dealerships bailing on advertising means the death of soaps!

This was a spot of sunshine in an endless tableau of sunset. I'll take it....whatever I can get!

[JackPeyton]

so.much.WORD!

[All My Shadows]

I object to the Nuke sex being in the same class at the Kirk/Uhura kiss or "Julia" (which was funtimes to watch in reruns in the 90s). Those things were TV-wide milestones. There had been no other interracial kisses on US TV (there had been one in the UK) before Kirk/Uhura, and "Julia" was really the first sitcom to star a black woman in a leading role where she wasn't playing the help. The Nuke sex can be considered a milestone in daytime, but in the grander scheme of things, they're more than a little late to the party. And the first Nuke kiss? They basically showed up after the party ended there.

What I'm seeing across message boards and blogs is a mixed bag in this regard. Some people are saying that the Nuke sex is a very big deal for television, but I can't agree with that. Two guys kissing? There are countless shows that did that, with teenagers who are in relationships, before ATWT even brought Van on as Luke. "Dawson's Creek" even had my Jack McPhee get some love as far as kissing goes. Two guys having sex? "Queer as Folk" made it old news, "Skins" made it normal, and "Brothers and Sisters" made it okay for US primetime. But then the people tell you "Well, no, forget about primetime or cable or the UK, just look at it in the scheme of daytime soaps in the US." And when I look at it that way, yes, the Nuke sex is a "milestone," but if you want to look at it from a daytime viewpoint, it has to be said that the "milestone" is hollow. Nuke, IMO, is the textbook example of an insta-couple, and I don't have the same attachment that others have for them (despite watching the very same show that even the hardest of hardcore Nuke fans have watched), and so while I can say "Well, thank god daytime has finally come into the latter half of the 00s," at the same time, I don't feel anything beyond that because I'm barely invested in this couple. People want to make it seem like ATWT is such a bad show, but when it comes to Nuke, they act like everything was done in the most perfect ways. I know that they've griped about things, I know, but the things that they got most vocal about are what? A kiss and some sex. But other than that, you have GLAAD talking about how well-written the story is and you have Perez Hilton pretending to give a damn about ATWT. Are we to believe that ATWT as a whole sucks, but Nuke is where it's at? I don't buy it. To me, the Nuke sex was very hollow and built on nothing, but it's no different from most of anything else that happens on this show. And so, if some people are saying that Nuke were subjected to subpar writing just like the rest of the show's couples, if those very same people are going to talk about how great the Nuke sex was, why don't they talk about how great Carly/Holden sex was? Why don't they talk about how great Parker and Liberty are as a couple? Jack/Janet? See, what I mean? The rest of the show sucks, but I'll be damned if Nuke isn't must-see television.

There's a comment posted on Casiello's blog that I agree with a lot. It's posted by a "Mark," so I'm wondering if it's our very own MarkH? I highlighted the parts that I especially like, except for the Lucinda/Luke parts (which I agree with, too, except for the part where he says that he's invested in them more because they've been on longer -- I'm invested in them more simply because we know why they have a relationship and what they mean to each other).

The big part that's in size 3 font perfectly explains how I feel about the Nuke relationship as a whole. I don't need to see a character for years or decades to feel for them or "know" them, but I do have to really feel like I know them to "know" them as characters. The Nuke sex, the Nuke kisses, the hugs, the touches, the looks of longing, the sweet words that they whisper to each other....it's all nice stuff, trust me, and I like to watch it (when Silbermann feels like being an actor, at least, and when Van isn't high on life), but at the end of the day, it's all very, very hollow to me because Nuke is a hollow pairing to me. They skipped the part where we saw them fall in love. I betcha if I go through as many ATWT synopsis from the summer of 2007 as I can find, I won't come across anything that goes past saying "Luke realized he had feelings for Noah" or something like that, and on the other end, all we'll get is "Noah realized he had feelings for Luke." As long as those loose ends are hanging there, I can't, and won't, see Nuke as a couple with substance. We've seen little building blocks of what they mean to each other after they got together, such as Luke helping Noah be more comfortable with his sexuality, but besides that, what do they really mean to each other, and I don't mean generic things like "Well, Luke is home to Noah, blah blah blah." Character-specific things. What do they mean to each other? I feel that a lot of the hardcore Nukers filled in the blanks themselves with what they want to see or what they wished they could have had in real life or whatever. And I'm pretty positive that if you asked ten people why Luke and Noah became a couple, you'd get ten different answers. Unless, of course, they all say that "they're soul mates." At 19. Yeah. Whatever.