The Politics Thread

[DramatistDreamer]

Oh my goodness, yes, I had forgotten about some of this stuff, with Rees-Mogg and lying to the Queen of England! This was a good review by O'Brien. Sometimes during previous U.K. elections, I have livestreamed LBC. Really interesting and concisely, passionately put.

My question is, did Brexit really "get done" when British and French fisherfolk are still arguing about fishing rights? Has the lorry drivers shortage been resolved? If not, and the U.K. is still trying to lure drivers from the E.U. with less than desirable short-term agreements, wasn't Brexit supposed to short-circuit this from happening? What about all the loads of paperwork that an agreement was supposed to circumvent in transporting goods? It seems as if Brexit didn't quite get everything done.

[DramatistDreamer]

[Ponds]

As someone who lived a good portion of my adult life before Roe v. Wade, abortion will never go away...it will simply result in the death of women who will find a way.  Poor women will be the ones who die by the thousands.  Wealthy women will continue to get them safely.

[amybrickwallace]

It's also nice to see here that polite and civil discussions on this subject can still be had. Thanks to @JaneAusten and @Max especially.

[Max]

Thank you so much for saying that, Amy. And thanks to both you and Jane for such thoughtful discussions.

[amybrickwallace]

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[Wendy]

As far as abortion goes, my philosophy is live and let live.

By that, I mean, I'm pro-choice for all intents and purposes. However, I don't have kids myself (never wanted them). But had I personally been pregnant? For ME, I likely would keep the baby (I know, I said I don't want kids, but if it happened, I think I'd adapt and love the baby!) But I don't think MY view is the only view, and each circumstance is different. So, for some, abortion should be an option.

I just feel one side INSISTING their view is the ONLY view is wrong, and it infuriates me. Don't want an abortion, don't have one. Religion should have no place in government laws.

[JaneAusten]

AMEN!!! 

And I really don't get the "I support abortion for 20 weeks and for situations where a moms life is in danger after 20 weeks @max.  This is assuming that there are tons of people getting abortions after 20 weeks. There aren't. What your asking people to legislate is a restriction looking for a problem. There are not millions of abortions every year for women past 20 weeks In fact that number is small which should tell everyone out there that its being done on an exception basis already.

It still comes down to lack of autonomy and not trusting that the person carrying their child knows what's best. The state policing reproductive rights frankly is sick.

[amybrickwallace]

The very idea that these arrogant and ignorant men in government think they know women's bodies better than women do would be hilarious if it weren't so infuriating. That they would incentivize vigilantes who have absolutely nothing to do with the case at hand just shows how low they are willing to sink.

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Edited November 7, 2021 by amybrickwallace

[JaneAusten]

@max

I wanted to respond on a couple things

1. Moderates in the democratic party. Uhm no one is chasing these people out. Biden is a moderate. A MODERATE lost the race in Virginia. Lauren Underwood is a moderate, Joe Manchin, Josh Gottheimer are Corporate democrats. Meaning they answer to their donors. Both accept money from the pharmaceutical industry which is why they are both opposed to allowing Medicare to negotiate drug pricing. Lauren Underwood who represents a swing district in Illinois and actually works in congress has supported both bills. She's a moderate. No one is chasing her out.  When Manchin puts his own interests and the interests of the crooked No Labels Caucus(Wall Street are their donors) above the 6th poorest state in the country you better believe he should be called out. Kristin Sinema is a turncoat. You cry for her. She campaigned when she ran on everything she is now opposed to. She can't meet with the PRESIDENT(the head of her own party) because she had to go meet with donors? Spare me. There are 6 corporatists in the house that were holding up everything in terms of legislation. I refuse to call them moderates.

2. MSNBC has lets see Joe Scarborough(not an ally), Stephanie Ruhle(Former rich Wall Street banker), Chuck Todd(no comment). Rachel Maddow and Joy Reid. That's it.

 

[marceline]

Manchin and Gottheimer are Democrats. Period.

Whatever my issues with Manchin and his ilk, they don't run against the Democratic Party. The same can't be said for progressives. During the primary here in OH-11, progressives swooped in and called me and every other non-Bernie voter "corporate Democrats." That label is offensive bullshit and it's part of why Nina Turner lost.

[JaneAusten]

I'll refrain from using the term. I had no idea Nina Turner used it. Max was the one who stated moderates are being chased out insinuating the party is too far left, which is not true. THis isn't IMO a stmt about progressives who are a minority. Manchin as offensive as I find him I have less issue with than Gottheimer.  Underwood works her tail off, legislates and is a moderate who supported both bills a MODERATE president proposed. So is Sean Casten who represents another swing district here who also had zero issues supporting them. Gottheimer and the other 5 - every one of them was part of No Labels the caucus Lieberman works with. 

[amybrickwallace]

And why Bernie never was elected president, but I digress.

@marceline and @dragonflies,  my fellow Ohioans, I don't know if you have seen this yet. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wksu.org/government-politics/2021-11-02/an-abortion-bill-thats-similar-to-the-controversial-new-law-in-texas-might-be-coming-to-ohio%3f_amp=true

[OzFrog]

Sadly it’s in the current UK government’s best interest to keeping fighting the “Brexit war” even if the UK has already let the EU. This is only because the government has nothing else to show for itself and it needs to keep fighting this imaginary war amongst others to cover up just what a s***show leaving the EU actually means, and also to appease the right-wing of the Tory party who will never be satisfied no matter how much gets done, ie. they will keep demanding more more more more, ad infinitum.

[Max]

Unless candidates are self-funded, they all have donors whom they have to take into account when making their decisions. Members of Congress are free to make their own decisions without walking in lockstep with their party's leadership.

I also never said that anybody is being chased out of the Democratic Party, but the vitriol that you are showing to some of these Democrats certainly shows they are unwelcome by some liberals. And if those Democrats aren't welcome, a center-right person such as myself wouldn't want to join that party, regardless of how I feel about Trump and his GOP sycophants. (I may vote Democratic in a particular election, but I certainly won't join the party.)

MSNBC features Joe Scarborough, and it also features a slew of mainstream news reporters. But its roster of liberals goes way beyond Rachel Maddow and Joy Reid: witness Chris Hayes (whom I most definitely consider a liberal), Lawrence O'Donnell, Al Sharpton, Jonathan Capehart, Michael Eric Dyson, Ari Melber, and others (including Mika Brzezinski, though she's not as liberal as those I just mentioned). If you strongly disagree with this list, we could argue about it until the cows come home, but such a disagreement would be yet another indicator that it would make little sense for the two of us to belong to the same political party.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Max