On 12/14/2025 at 9:22 AM, Khan said:

I agree. Especially because it happened so damn quickly, with absolutely no breathing room for him, for Cathy, for all of us.

David Jacobs insisted that was the plan all along, but I doubt it. I think they had every intention of keeping Joshua around for years to come, but Michael Filerman and his ego ruined everything.

I'd still love for someone who was there to explain to us what the original intention was for Empire Valley; was it ALWAYS meant to be revealed as an underground spy network? Because, even if that wasn't how it started, it still feels as if they were leading up to something big. Otherwise, why invest so much time in another real estate development scheme? We'd already been there and done that with Lotus Point.

I honestly could see the seeds of what became of Joshua from the very beginning. Perhaps it happened a bit faster than it needed to, but Dunne did not waste time with things lmao

As for Empire Valley, I don't know about always, but the basics of it were definitely laid out by the last third of season 6 - seemingly a new, modern, environmentally progressive community that was hiding an international communications center. They did NOT repeat a Lotus Point story.

The real mystery is, where would it have gone in Season 7? I have no doubt Peter Dunne would've done a fantastic season-long arc with it, or something that led to the next arc. Sadly, Paulsen had no clue where to go with it (although I did like Gary blowing it all up).

Edited December 15, 2025Dec 15 by YRBB

2 hours ago, YRBB said:

The real mystery is, where would it have gone in Season 7?

That's my question as well. Where COULD they have gone with it? Would everyone suddenly up and move to Empire Valley? Would there have been an EV spinoff, lol? I'm just struggling to figure out what, if anything, would have been the point.

1 hour ago, Khan said:

That's my question as well. Where COULD they have gone with it? Would everyone suddenly up and move to Empire Valley? Would there have been an EV spinoff, lol? I'm just struggling to figure out what, if anything, would have been the point.

It's definitely hard to guess what the climax would've been! Perhaps there was no other way to end it BUT to blow it up lol

That being said, I do think the point was the journey more than anything else.

Somebody needs to find Dunne and get him to tell us where he would have taken it lol

3 minutes ago, YRBB said:

Perhaps there was no other way to end it BUT to blow it up lol

LOL!!

In the past, I've speculated that Empire Valley was supposed to be a story about phony real estate developers bilking people, before it got changed into what made it on air.

I would LOVE for someone to interview Peter Dunne - not just about Empire Valley, but about his time on KL (and DALLAS) in general. I feel like he would have a ton of great writing advice to share.

The one thing I do remember when reading the blogs about each season written by Tommy was that Dunne had no intentions during his time there of reuniting Gary and Val. To him and the other producers there.. they were to remain divorced yet always connected through no only Lucy and the twins.. but because of their history.

Nothing shows this more than when after she was found in TN and came back to Knots Landing that Gary had to break it to her that they weren't sure married and that they had attempted things a second time as adults and it didn't work with the two crying on the beach over what once was. Having Val's memory totally return only became a thing once she was around Ben and it was played up in an end game sort of way.

Paulson, or whomever was the show runner, in season 7 totally switched gears and started to make Ben the antagonist instead of Gary.. even having him cheat on Val with Cathy.

"Jill, this is Gary Ewing. Gary Ewing, Jill Bennett."

Now I'm curious what Jill and Val's first interaction will be like.

ETA: Also, I like that Cathy's stage manager knows damn well what's happening between Cathy and Ben ... and she seems to be a-ok with it.

Edited December 20, 2025Dec 20 by Franko

On 12/15/2025 at 1:34 PM, Soaplovers said:

The one thing I do remember when reading the blogs about e Having Val's memory totally return only became a thing once she was around Ben and it was played up in an end game sort of way.

Yes it was. It was done with huge fanfare for them and I was impressed.

I have pored over the blogs, fansites, interviews etc. for more details re: the original intent for Empire Valley but I think the reality is no one quite remembers. The surveillance state, paranoia and spying elements were there from the beginning in Season 6, and I do think are very relevant today. I think just how sci-fi it got the following season may not have been what was intended.

Edited December 20, 2025Dec 20 by Vee

3 hours ago, Franko said:

"Jill, this is Gary Ewing. Gary Ewing, Jill Bennett."

Now I'm curious what Jill and Val's first interaction will be like.

ETA: Also, I like that Cathy's stage manager knows damn well what's happening between Cathy and Ben ... and she seems to be a-ok with it.

What I always find most interesting when I rewatched Season 6 was Jill’s innocuous, unremarkable first appearance. For viewers watching it in real time I don’t think anyone would have guessed she would become a major player for the next four seasons or that her storyline would go the way it did.

I think what always more confusing to me in addition to the Empire Valley mess was Peter & Jill’s elaborate scheme I.e. who knew what secret, who had leverage etc. I’ve tried rewatching most of S7 and S8 again and well after 60 whopping episodes I’m still confused.

8 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I think what always more confusing to me in addition to the Empire Valley mess was Peter & Jill’s elaborate scheme I.e. who knew what secret, who had leverage etc. I’ve tried rewatching most of S7 and S8 again and well after 60 whopping episodes I’m still confused.

Thanks for the warning.

For the record, here's where we stand with the current two big secrets as 1986 begins.

GARY IS THE FATHER OF BOBBY AND BETSY:

Explicitly know: Val, Ben, Mack, Karen, Abby, Greg, Gary (Even if Val won't 100% say so for another two years), J.R. (Just kidding! But, c'mon, like he wouldn't know?)

Could easily put two and two together: Lilimae, Cathy, Laura, Peter (he might have found it out while snooping through Greg's stuff), Olivia, Eric and Michael

JOSHUA DIED BY ACCIDENT WHEN HE FAILED TO COMMIT A MURDER-SUICIDE WITH CATHY:

Explicitly know: Cathy, Lilimae

Could easily put two and together: Every damn person on the face of the earth. I want this storyline to end already, and for someone to read that miserable old crone for filth.

8 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

What I always find most interesting when I rewatched Season 6 was Jill’s innocuous, unremarkable first appearance. For viewers watching it in real time I don’t think anyone would have guessed she would become a major player for the next four seasons or that her storyline would go the way it did.

That's because it was supposed to be one time only appearance.

The actress did the bit part as a favor to David Jacobs since she happened to be in LA during pilot season and he called her and offered her the one episode bit part.

58 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

That's because it was supposed to be one time only appearance.

The actress did the bit part as a favor to David Jacobs since she happened to be in LA during pilot season and he called her and offered her the one episode bit part.

Also, her role faded by the end of season 7, and she was set to disappear. But then spring ‘86, TV Guide wanted to do a cover story on Teri Austin. The S7 season finale was about to be filmed, and TV Guide wanted to observe her on set, except… she was not in the finale. The scene was quickly written with Gary and Olivia arriving home to find Jill waiting for Gary. That inspired the writers to bring Jill back for s8. We have TV Guide to thank for Psycho Jill!

3 hours ago, yrfan1983 said:

We have TV Guide to thank for Psycho Jill!

I'm not sure how to feel about that.

And here I thought it was all Abby’s fault for sowing the seeds of Jill’s paranoia 🤣

Jill's descent into madness is one of the storylines that caused Knots Landing to go off the rails for me.

I think Jill's descent into madness was the only well thought out story that the Latham's came up with that spanned between season 8 and 9 before going into full force during season 10.