Cat

Oh, I watched You're Welcome! It was the only episode in S5 that I did watch, and it was precisely because Charisma was returning -- hopefully back to the show, I thought at the time. She looked STUNNING. Her wavy hair and tan and curves and great wardrobe! Look, was Charisma Meryl Streep? No. But she was naturally funny with great chemistry with everyone and a good sarcastic line delivery. Her character went from Mean Girl to demon fighter. I could have done without her being a divine being -- the whole point about Cordelia was how grounded in reality she was, so all the heavenly stuff didn't chime right. That kind of neutered the character, but perhaps that was Joss's intention, since CC seemed to be his designated target. As you say, we all knew -- or rather felt -- that her firing was grossly unfair, especially for the reasons stated. But at that time, the agency of the fans was small -- it was, like, you take what we give you and be grateful to be watching the golden age of television. It was also just kind of accepted in the 80s and 90s that if an actress got pregnant, that might be the borderline legal reason for firing her. The internet was in its infancy and so the ability to marshal criticism or outrage or ask direct questions of TPTB was limited. LOL! I watched her on Veronica Mars too! We used to be friends... I didn't have JW on a pedestal, though I did admire, at the time, his ability to turn a WB/CW teen show into something that meant much more than that, a show which had the power to move and touch its audience with some great characters. Angel S4 and Buffy S6/S7 was when I started thinking maybe he was burnt out. I never got into the Avengers movies. I sort of realised early on that JW was beloved mainly because of his snappy, talky, hyper-pop-culture-referencing dialogue and that's fine but it's not the end-all and be-all of greatness. Charisma's statement was perfect and honest and thoughtful and just how I imagine her to be as a person. You know who ponied up his love and support right away? J. August Richard (Gunn on Angel). I thought his Tweet was warm and meaningful. I do think David Boreanaz, for all his faults and transgressions, liked Charisma a lot and knew what was going on then and now, and he supported her then and now. I think something big is coming down the pipe regarding Joss too. It may be in the Justice League investigation regarding the re-shoots, and I bet locking Gal Gadot in a room and threatening her career might be one of those things.

The Gorgas totally got off easy. Melissa tried to get on the show via Danielle Staub. Then she and Joe just went direct to the Bravo producers with a show reel. It was Attack Teresa from the get-go. They broke the Gorga parents' hearts in the process. Was it even worth it? Also, I don't think Kathy's mother and Giacinto Gorga ever reconciled before they passed. The RHOA teasers left me open mouthed. I've never seen them be this upfront on a RH show. The 4th wall-breaking teaser took me straight back to S9 RHOA -- Phaedra whispering that Kandi and Shamea had a thing, and Kandi saying that Porsha was an 'aggressive lesbian.' We'd only ever heard about it -- now we might be seeing it.

HOLY S*** those are some racy RHOA PREVIEWS Is that Shamea Kandi puts her arm around in the second one?

I agree with you. This isn't a great look for Tiffany, mainly because its so random and out of nowhere. Why cry about something which has nothing to do with you? Tiffany should not be fighting D'Andra's battles. This is between Kary and D'Andra exclusively. You know what? I don't blame any of the Wakiles for feeling this way. Kathy and her family were done so dirty by the Gorgas. I can sort of see why Teresa might view Kathy as unforgiveable, because a lot was said which was incredibly personal... but Joe and Melissa used the Wakiles as part of a united front against Teresa. When they saw it wasn't winning them fans, and when the show pivoted towards its current iteration, they ghosted the entire Wakile family in order to kiss Teresa's ass and stay on TV. I really enjoy Joe Gorga but this is the truth. To dump family like this after they helped you get your story across to the nation/world was hella cold.

Preview time! RHOD: RHONJ:

I was in high school.

Thanks! That's a nice reply from Charisma. She must have known he was getting some heat on social media, too.

Oh HEY Seth Marks from back in the day

Thanks for the update! I'm glad. During the EW Angel reunion, CC was seated next to him. They seemed to have a friendly and positive working relationship, judging by their interaction and comments.

RHOBH 2014 was the season of Witchy Poo and Joyce. And yet they jettisoned Christine? 🤔 Bravo is SF dumb sometimes.

I feel like those Grayson Hall clips from Dark Shadows are like a 2-minute ad for Valium (which was flying off the shelves at that time). I was just talking about Ronn Moss on another thread and... well... he deserves a spot here, I think!

I feel like the Joss Whedon story (if you can call it that) still has further to run -- largely because of the number of people who are staying studiously silent about it. At some point, will Alyson Harrigan, David Boreanaz, Amy Acker, Alexis Denisof speak? I hope they do, honestly. During spring lockdown, I rewatched the Buffy series from S1 to part of S6 (couldn't bring myself to do S7), and this winter I have now moved onto Angel. I am about to watch S4, which is the season Joss publicly humiliated Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant, destroyed her character, and damn near tanked the show as a whole. I haven't watched it since it originally aired (2002?) and indeed, it was such a shitshow that I never ended up watching S5. Charisma was true to her name and it always shocked me that she never made it big elsewhere. Well, now we pretty much know why. I remember Joss was largely absolved (on the newly emerging online fanboards) of destroying this character and, very nearly, his spin-off show. Fans didn't want to blame the 'genius' who created and wrote a show that meant so much to them. The blame was laid squarely at Charisma's feet for 'falling pregnant' and 'not telling her bosses' until she was some ways along. This came directly from interviews given by Whedon (but interestingly, I do not recall David Greenwalt, his co-writer, opining in such annoyed, angry tones -- I wonder what he made of CC and the character of Cordelia being dismantled this way. He was apparently the one who championed bringing Cordelia over to the spin-off). It was clear CC was being blamed as the one at fault, the 'unprofessional, sloppy' actress who could not be relied upon to do her job. It is awful how that tag basically hung over her for the rest of her career. And that's another reason why I want JW to continue being exposed. Because it keeps a foot on his neck, especially as this is clearly not a one-off, but a pattern. I'm sorry it took not just Ray Fisher but RF and Charisma Carpenter to get people talking about this.

That's too bad -- only from the POV of getting to see Dale Mercer again lol! But I get that Chicago has its own vibe, mix and history which needs to be established independently. The location is as much a character on these shows as the RHs. Watching SLC on my Amazon Prime account, and they have one of Jen's talking heads as the main pic on the page. Someone at Amazon must really hate her, because it is THE most unflattering screen shot ever. Jen literally has no neck in it. As for deep sixing Jen, perhaps you are right. Perhaps letting go of Jen will allow the other women to bloom. I worry that Bravo has put alllll its chips on Jen Shah as 'queen bee and MVP' of the group. Which IMO has been a mistake, in that it has come at the expense of the rest of the cast, and the audience aren't feeling it either.

This episode slipped in the ratings, and I wonder if its because the trailer looked too much like previous episodes. Also viewers may be over Kary whining. I know I am. For me, the episode was notable for two things. One, Tiffany's insane house/closet/outdoor kitchen/ wood-burning pizza oven. Two, it finally revealed the true face of Brandi who has hidden behind her 'victimhood' SL until now. The first thing Brandi basically said this episode was how difficult it would be for her to criticise the things Tiffany has done, but..... Dot dot dot. Brandi is chomping at the bit to go after her. It's what she enjoys doing. I thought it was noteworthy that Tiffany said she was pulling a prank because Brandi enjoys pranks too. As we saw, Brandi enjoys pulling nasty pranks which target people. She DOES NOT enjoy being the target of a prank. In fact, she can't handle it. The dramatics, the fake throwing up, Stephanie and Kary just HAVING to go into the bathroom to hold Brandi's hair out of her face. C'mon Brandi, like roasted cricket is the worst thing you've ever had in your mouth. Girl, please. The whole thing rang so false. Kary and Stephanie could barely contain their smiles. Tiffany has given them the ammo they need to attack her again and again. They are in heaven about this. The crazy thing is how someone as mean, backstabbing, untrustworthy, and dull as Kary managed to forge these solid alliances with Brandi, Stephanie and Kameron? I am in shock. Are they just grateful she got LeeAnne off the show? I mean, Kameron of all people has Brandi and Kary's back against Tiffany? Should Tiffany have snuck the crickets into her pizza and made everyone try it? No. It was a dumb, messy prank. But I can't help but feel empathy for DTM. For all her degrees and career and success, she is still that girl who immigrated from China, nerdy, studying hard, trying to get top grades, trying to be accepted and embraced by others. And instead they are 'othering' her. Like, I felt bad when they gaily sailed out of there at 10.29pm and she begged them to stay a little longer. She set herself up by establishing a curfew time; i understand why she did, but she regretted it when she saw it was used as a stick to beat her with. Honestly, Tiffany was guilty of trying too hard. Her prank backfired and she tried to make amends and apologize. She really wants them to accept her, and with the exception of D'Andra, they're not. They know she wants their acceptance and so they are withholding it.

Hmmm... not sure about this segment she's creating. Love her and of course want to know what's in the binder. But its like she can't let RHOP go, and it seems like she deeply regrets her departure. If that is the case, she had a chance to stay and pull out those binder receipts during S6. Instead, its like she's shouting from the sidelines, making it easier for the Poven to dismiss her and dimimish her.

The opening 45 seconds of NJ's opening episode next Tuesday *screams with joy*

@Gray Bunny @Soaplovers Well, damn! This sounds juicy as hell! Can you two work for Bravo and scout potential cast and locations? Seriously! Would you include Tinsley, Dale and the Coupon King in a franchise like this? The talk of contrast between the suburban haves and central have nots gave me goosebumps. I assumed Chicago richies all lived on Lakeshore Drive! SLC Great 1st part reunion, largely thanks to Lisa Barlow and Jen swapping personalities for a bit. We needed Lisa to step it up and Jen to tone it down. Jen (who was dressed as the evil princess in Flash Gordon) seems to have been humbled by backlash, especially online. She was careful to take a breath before laying out her thoughts. Like Meredith on Danny Pellegrino's recent podcast (well-timed), I'm not sure if Jen has entirely changed. Everytime Mary speaks, Jen's eyes flash and she looks like she wants to strike her. Other times, Jen does what Jill used to do with Alex @Gray Bunny -- catch the eye of someone else and laugh derisively like Mary just said somethimg weak or foolish. Total gaslighting. Mary triggers Jen so bad, and it is AMAZING. I love that the medicated culty kook is literally the voice of reason and logic here. Bad Bravo for editing her sleeping in the reunion trailer! That gave us all a false edit of what Mary was going to contribute. Did Jen ask them to do that? Mary was doing anything but sleep, she was holding Jen calmly, effectively, brutally to account. She was getting answers. The editing of that trailer (with Jen at the heart, Mary on the periphery) coincides with discussion here about editing during the season. Why was so much relevant stuff left on the cutting room floor? So many gaps in the stories? Why is Mary relegated to playing a one-dimensional kook? She clearly has hidden layers. Why was context in the Lisa-Heather rivalry jettisoned for Jen's weekly meltdowns? I also noticed Andy doing with Jen what he used to do with Bethenny, where he asked her to comment on SL that had nothing to do with her. He was on the point of deferring to her opinion. Conclusion: he and Bravo have decided Jen is the central figure, and that's a shame because as Fabulous Ice and Mary are showing, this is an ensemble cast here and everyone is bringing something unique that deserves equal spotlight. Lisa Barlow and her spray-tanned palms...! I'm so glad she came to retain her snowflake! She milked her sudden alliance with Jen and her disdain for Heather and Whitney for all they were worth! I cannot fault her hustle. Lisa is not the Queen Bee she desperately wants to be (her face when Andy brought up Rihanna loving Heather!). She is not as smart or strategic as she thinks she is. But God loves a tryer, and she was MVP this episode. Social media is talking only about her and Mary right now. Heather and Whitney were an effective tag team but weirdly overshadowed this episode. Meredith is a dis-engaging queen as far as I'm concerned. She looked gorgeous and her hair and makeup were flawless. The thing with Meredith is that she sometimes does not need to talk to express herself. As reserved as she is, a lot of her emotions flit across her face and the viewer gets a lot of her story from non- verbal cues. I find her fascinating in her non-aggressive queenly way. As far as I'm concerned, the entire cast needs to stay as is, bring Mary deeper into the fold, maybe cast a FOH (not Brooks).

Welp. Her distancing from JW all these years also spoke volumes. Not surprising given the 'difficult/arrogant' tag she was given during the Buffy years. This statement actually says a lot for SMG.

ALL THIS. I have long felt that Charisma's firing from Angel represented something illegal and very, very unfair and there was a real code of silence around it. This is confirmation. Her firing and erasure from the Angel canvas went against the wishes of many fans who considered her more than a fan-fave, she was (along with David Boreanaz) an OG. To have Amber Bensopn confirm it and say that the Buffy cast is also still processing Whedon's toxicity 20 years later speaks volumes. The part in Charisma's post about Whedon playing favourites and pitting cast members against each other really stuck out. We know SMG and Alison Hannigan were at loggerheads in the last few seasons (especially about whether Buffy should have ended after S5 or continued on UPN), and it makes sense that Whedon might pit the two female leads against each other. On the Angel front, I remember Joss waxing lyrical about Amy Acker (Fred) and I imagine around this time he decided the character of Cordelia was surplus to requirements. Whedon would invite a select few faves to his home for improv/Shakespeare dinners (like Acker and Alexis Denisof -- Wesley -- who is also married to Alison Hannigan). Only select faves were invited to those dinners and others were excluded. I also wonder what happened with Glenn Quinn who was killed off after 12 episodes in S1 of Angel.

I am beyond ready for NJ to start next week! Dolores bringing some drama! Frankie still looks hot AF. ATL sneak peek:

OMG How cool! And spooky. Ronnie and Christina have not aged a day! Nice to see Christina's BFF Kevin Chase joined them. Given how close a lot of the women still are (Ronnie, Youlia and Amanda supported each other through AA after the show ended), it would be cool to catch up with all of them in a mini-season . Mary, Ronnie, Youlia, Christina, Robin (a Texan Trumper, yikes) and Reiko. And Jody, I suppose. I'd be curious to see where Evil Jodyficent is in her life.

OOO Lisa vs Heather That tiny 'Lisa Barlow' cake tho 💀

RHOD: Oh Kameron NO. And I spy ginger trashbox Brandi in the comments encouraging this mess. 🤢 Seriously desperate for attention. What next -- prison letters to the Menendez brothers?

@Taoboi I haven't watched S2 RHOV since it first aired years ago, but the bullying of Mary by Jody was egregious. Jody wasn't just doing this for the show; she was actually evil and her inexplicable hatred of Mary oozed off the screen. I can't remember if she accused Mary of being antisemitic at one point, but I do recall her bringing her equally awful daughter into the mix, not to mention preying on Ronnie who was struggling with addiction. Jody single-handedly destroyed the franchise. I imagine Slice (which aired it) got so many complaints about the bullying that they didn't want to be associated with it. Might have been a blessing for some women. I believe Mary remarried and is likely in a happier space. Ronnie went into treatment for alcoholism and is now sober; i believe she might have remarried also but unsure. She and Mary reconnected on social media a few years back. Jody may have lost some or all of her businesses, which is karma IMO. Sadly, Yulia's husband divorced her two seconds after the show finished and because of the pre-nup, she was left with not much. Not sure what Christina is doing these days, but hopefully she's having fun doing it, lol. For a palate cleanser, I would recommend rewatching S1 RHOMelbourne! A perfect balance of humor, shade and pettiness. Gina to Andrea: "You are an insignificant arse-hair!" God, Andrea was so uppity and delusional, and watching Gina demolish her and Lydiot's respective facades was *chef's kiss*