P.J.

Now...Bert and Henry, sure. God love HB, but at that time, he was a PITA, neglectful and manipulative father. Bert wouldn't have fit in with the Lewises at all. The whitewash job on Reva was fast and furious. Billy never should've been made to kiss her ass. He always should've been able to call her on her sh#t.

HB and Bert? Oy vey... The only reason to have Vanessa hooked on pills was to rid Reva of that child. Vanessa's addiction disappears almost as quickly as it started. Billy was volatile enough that between learning Reva had schemed with Alan and Josh being paralyzed, he would've had plenty of motivation to hate on Reva that summer, at least imo.

So, Doug Marland wrote Roger's death in Santo Domingo? Am I misremembering---I thought I once read an interview with Doug Marland where he was given the choice between ATWT and GL, and he chose GL because it was in better shape.

Were they that worried about ATWT's looking terribly stodgy in the wake of Y&R/GH's youth movement?

A) I'm sure they would have. But b ) I don't tend to change my mind about actors once I've seen them. Again, in fairness to her, it's got to be a hard assignment to step into a role at a heavy point in story with a co-star who's also new to his role (Peter Simon). I should be grateful...if they had liked AS more, they might've replaced Maeve.

I guess I didn't realize he had written on The Doctors. I know he some pushback for his plotting (some of which do go on too long), but I loved his ATWT and his ability to juggle story for 35-40 characters almost effortlessly. His GL to me doesn't seem to be as intricately plotted as ATWT. Whether that's about his level of control or the brevity of time, I couldn't guess.

I know it's unfair to rag on AS, as her tenure was so brief, and not all of it's online. I think what annoys me is that her Vanessa seems so flighty---almost to the point of air-headedness. Yes, Maeve plays up the man-hungry socialite to the hilt, but there was also a shrewd business woman in there too. I'm not getting that from AS. Yeah, '82 is not a good year for Vanessa, in terms of humiliation. But then again, she is a pot-stirring bitch in heels, which was probably fun to play.

Point taken. Or Andy--who had literally just been sent to jail in spite of being scum. Then again, Carrie walked away from two dead people and married her attorney. I've been watching early '82, and it made my head spin how quickly this all goes down. If SM had been around then, God knows what the reaction would have been. Jane Elliot or no Jane Elliot.

I didn't think she had either. But the SOC who's who (which is an iffy source, I know) said she got there in March. I swear it's August, meaning Carrie was only there about a month before Diane died. Which also means Jane Elliot was there about a year? I wish more of this was online, even with subVanessa. Stuart is really just wrong in the role. Or if not wrong, just clashes with how Maeve played it. I guess I didn't realize Diane and Carrie's husband had had an affair. I thought she somehow framed him for embezzlement and then he killed himself. Diane also knew Ross had used Amanda. And that Alan had colluded with Roger and gotten him out of town. And if she didn't know Vanessa had sent Ed Rita's address in San Francisco, Joe had the info and it got mixed in with her blackmail stash. I think I read an interview where Sofia said it was her decision to leave---but she hadn't expected to be killed off.

So...in reading the recaps of the reveal that Carrie killed Diane and Joe--it sounds anti-climactic. Carrie just cracks and tells Ross? Was it as big a letdown as it seems? Plus, I don't think she'd been in town that long before Diane died.

Pam Long---Reva marrying and getting pregnant by HB. Surely there had to be another trigger to send Josh crashing into that damn tree. It was just a layer of southern gothic via V.C Andrews that was gross.

I don't necessarily agree with all the blame Chris Goutman gets for ATWT's demise. But he was a hell of a director. And I think they put a lot of effort into those "special" / theme episodes they'd do.

Thanks too! Also, re: Barbara--there's always the James factor in explaining her behavior. And I'm not sure exactly who was in Oakdale at the time, but maybe Marland needed a pot-stirrer, and having an established character go dark was more expedient than bringing in someone new.

God, HOW could I have forgotten Iva having to accept her rapist into her family? Although it does tie in to his "let's send everyone to therapy" trope.

for Doug Marland, on ATWT, over-exposing the character of Lily. To the point where Lily's birthday became a town event for years. In general, beating the "in therapy" trope to death on GL and ATWT.

I was on the verge of typing "hippie". Which rhymes with "drippy"--given the emo "You Needed Me" theme song. Per Paul, it does seem more Kim/Dan like. @Paul Raven did GL have a young signature couple? I can't believe Irna wouldn't have tried replicating Penny/Jeff.

This is a completely ignorant question, but are Leslie/Mike GL's equivalent of ATWT's Penny/Jeff? I'm much more aware of early ATWT history than GL's. Morgan and Kelly's wedding is beautiful, and I remember thinking that when I saw it as a kid. All I can think now is that it must have been a logistical nightmare. Winding through the woods and everything. lol.

Were weddings not really "events" until Quint and Nola's in 1983? I've seen a couple from the early '80s and they seem like tepid affairs. Kelly and Morgan's is picturesque, but devoid of drama. The only drama at Ross and Carrie's is Vanessa's choice of couture, and Ed and Mo's is in the Bauer living room (from what I can make out). Even Quint and Nola's (while grand in scope) is a little lite on subplots. Related question---did the country club set not exist before Quint and Nola's engagement party? If characters need to cross, it's mainly at the hospital, Spaulding, The HideOut or Wired for Sound.

I just didn't like Mel. It seems that at some point (after a couple of years of hapless romances) TPTB would remember that Rick was a Bauer, and would try to meld him into the tentpole he should've been all along. This usually resulted in a boring romance with some "suitable" boring woman. There was a lot wrong about his co-dependent relationship with Beth (in the last decade of the show), the least of which was it always felt like he was doing it more out of some weird need to fill Phillip's place.

It seems like Tom Tammi was only there a year or so. Deas was there longer. Maybe it's just the fact that Deas made a bigger impression on her that made him "her Tom". And no one's memory's infallible.

I don't remember what my reaction was, but I'm sure some didn't like it. I don't recall why Barbara focused on Margo and Tom. Other than some lingering friction with Margo over her affair with James. I think it served Barbara better in the long run. Love usually sparks an about face, so I guess losing at love should too.

I guess they tried with both of Reva's "surprise" children. But she only had a year with Dylan (Billy shouldered most of the burden on that one). By the time they tried to sell her bonding with Jonathan, I was so over Reva I didn't give a fig.

I suppose a general reluctance by writers/suits to risk alienating a segment of the audience who watched legacy children grow up. And the inability to create well rounded characters. Specifically in Reva's case, I suppose dealing with the affect of her tumultuous life on her kids was too "small" a story for her. Reva was certainly never going take any of her kids blaming her for their less-than-stellar decisions. Or let her fail at connecting with her kids.

I never quite get why so many soap kids are so much blander than their parents. It's not like we don't know all the little traumatic events that would've shaped them.

The irony is---while I know I watched Deas and Marx, it's really Holmes I remember in the role. I liked Dolan more as Margo. But that's about her chemistry elsewhere on the canvas. I loved her friendship with Hal (and later Jack) and in cop mode.