P.J.

I watched this a while ago. I remember that Billy was the only one really saying "Vanessa can still turn this around", while everyone else is waiting for her to die. I wanted Billy to go into her room and start arguing with her, instead of what everyone else was doing, which was basically crying over her and saying their goodbyes.

Tell me about it! I'd forgotten all about it.Then I hit early '92, Van's nearly raped, and Fletch starts making the googly eyes at her. I'm like no bleepin' way---it's going to be one-sided. And sure enough, Billy gets jealous, and Fletch is semi-friend-zoned by Van. THEN, Ross gives Fletch the side eye when he's glued to Van's side when she's pressing charges. And Mo is like "what's going on?" And Alex gets a little green eyed. And THEN Fletch is forced to admit on the stand that he loves her. UGH. But then they kiss...and (ewwww...more) I'm like RUN VANESSA RUN! NNNoooooooo! Fletch is fine as a B/C story character. He's not a leading man, he's comic relief. Worse, he's "the safe choice". Whether it's Maureen's crush that ends up stressing her marriage or the hapless affair with Holly, he's the medicine for the dissatisfied woman. If you've got a bruised heart, he's there to pick up the pieces. Objectively, I get why they needed someone harmless and "good guy" for Vanessa when Billy's dragging her through the emotional wringer. But it does seem really random, like the writers realized they had to meet Jay's guarantees somehow. They had even flirted with Fletch and Chelsea for crying out loud, before Kassie dePaiva left. The thing about Dinah was always that a little of her went a long way. Yes, there were other loud or obnoxious characters. (Nola, Vanessa, Harley) but they were never bitches 24/7. Nola had her family to soften her, Van had Henry and Harley/Frank. But nothing toned Dinah down, not really. From the minute Wendy stepped into the role, Dinah was a selfish bitch. She's still a selfish bitch towards the end when Dinah's faking needing rehab to spy on Billy for Bill or then turning on Bill and being responsible for Lizzie's kidnapping. Having the occasional moment of conscience isn't any kind of redemption.

It was the worst stuff I couldn't FF through in rewatching 89-93. After Billy nearly strangles Roger, Billy declares Mindy's no longer his daughter and feels betrayed that Van knew about the pregnancy and affair. She's disgusted with him for disowning Mindy, and starts spiraling, sleeping with a couple of clients. Fletch is disgusted with Alex for blowing it all up publicly. Van is nearly raped by Jack Kiley, who's heard she sleeps around, but Fletch saves her. He supports her pressing charges and starts crushing on her. They have a brief affair. She refuses to tell Bill that they're dating, which is really all about keeping her options open with Billy. Bill finds out anyway and runs away. Billy and Van find him at Cross Creek and reconnect. But Van comes home and nearly marries Fletch. She's late because she stops by Billy to tell hom and they fight. She gets into a car accident and misses Fletch's deadline. She finally has to admit that she's still in love with Billy. This is what spurs Nadine to fake the pregnancy and pass off Peter as her child.

I agree that Long ends up pushing Van aside for Reva, Alex and even India, her creations. But I also think she fleshed Vanessa out when she took over. (I think she takes over in March of '83? or so?) I read an interview from early on, and she said one of the first things she needed to do was give the viewers a reason to care about Van. And she's right...if not care about exactly, then a reason to root for the woman, who spent two years creating havoc and jumping from man to man without much rhyme or reason. And Long definitely did better by Vanessa in '89, weaving her back into the canvas effortlessly. @Speed Racer I'm not sure there's a way to do that without coming off as pathetic (as fun as India's "biological twitchings" line to Reva is, India constantly ends up with egg on her face.) I think I know what you're talking about with Van--I believe that's the summer of '91, when Vanessa is hell-bent on throwing herself at Billy and ends up sleeping with him at Cross Creek. She's not exactly wrong...she knows Billy only married Nadine because he was drunk and every time she turns around, Billy is making a pass at her. (well, if not a pass, saying meaningful things about their relationship and testing the water to see if she'd get back together with him.) In spite of her reputation (after '84, that is) Van wasn't a saint and could be arrogant as all get out. But she knew Billy. She knew she could get him if she wanted. In '92, after she dumps Fletch, she makes up her mind to go after Billy again, and only pauses because Nadine "accidently" lets her know she's "pregnant". Which doesn't stop her from flirting with him, which I find fun.

Well...Vanessa's a lot too lady-like for that...but I always did hate how the show rewrote (or completely forgot) Vanessa had been vamping around Springfield for years before "sexpot" Reva showed up. But Vanessa aiming some well timed truths about Reva's selfish ass behavior would've been greatly appreciated. She gets in a couple of licks after she found out about Dylan, but otherwise, Vanessa kept her mouth pretty shut.

The kid who played Evan Walsh IV had won one contests (like I wanna be a soap star) didn't he? The writers by then didn't care about the history he could've brought up. That stupid son of Emily's wasn't on for long. He was such a dweeb and had some almost awkward romance story with Alexandra Chando's character.

Yes. Natalie was born Christmas Eve, 2003. Martha had gotten pregnant during the Spa Storyline, and Rose spent the summer off on some island adventure-ish story which culminated in Simon, Katie, Rose and Paul in a hurricane, I think. Lily was pregnant around the time that Luke came out, and ended up tumbling down some stairs in a fight with Luke. (I think.) Storywise, ATWT never got around to doing much with either Natalie or Ethan. Ethan fell down a hole after Holden and Carly's affair, which resulted in Lily and Holden's reconciliation.

ATWT Maura West's first pregnancy, ended in her miscarrying Mike Kasnoff's child Kelly Hensley's first pregnancy was written in I believe, Emily gave birth to Daniel Hughes All of Martha Byrne's pregnancies were written in, resulting in Faith, Natalie and Ethan Snyder Hillary Bailey Smith's pregnancy was written in, and Margo had an affair with Hal, producing Adam Hughes. Collen Zenk's second pregnancy, when she gave birth to Will Munson. Guiding Light Two of Kim Zimmer's pregnancies, resulting in Marah and Shayne Lewis Maeve Kinkead's second pregnancy, Vanessa gave birth to Bill Lewis. Jessica Leccia's pregnancy, giving Frankie a daughter, Francesca. Liz Kiefer's pregnancies, Blake giving birth to Kevin, Jason and Clarissa Marler.

Ugh..I tend to block out things Olivia related because I just dislike her so. Was he still involved with her when he flipped and GA left? There's also the icky Harley/Cyrus/Marina thing---which makes me throw up in my mouth a lot.

No, Alan and Blake happened when (or I guess technically before) Blake came to Springfield. Gus is Alan's son by some nameless chick. I'm not sure GL was any more or less "fluid" with relationships than any other show, but maybe it feels like it because there's not that one couple that just anchors the show and weathers everything (like ATWT's Bob and Kim). You'd really almost have to go back to Bill and Bert for any stable couple. Other than Ed and Mo in the '80's/early '90's.

GL has three women who ran through families (Reva-Billy, HB, Josh and Kyle: Harley-AlanMichael, Phillip, Gus: Blake-Alan, Phillip, AlanMichael). And guys who slept with mothers/daughters (Bill did it twice, Matt, Ross, Mark Evans, Jeffrey) Although none of those situations were truly a triangle. It's hard to count HB/Reva/Kyle as one when it's clear that all that's keeping Reva in her marriage to HB is some sort of obligation. Ross and Holly are over before he sleeps with Blake. And Matt had sex with Dinah after he and Van were divorced. I guess Beth was just out of options, or the writers decided to up the drama quotient for Coop's death.

At least I could watch the first half, until **** shows up. Van at least tried to serve Dinah up a dose of reality....although I always thought there was more between Dinah and ^^^^ than they'd admit. Oh, while we're talking about shared lovers---are Beth and Lizzie the only mother/daughter duo who shared two lovers? The limit is usually one.

That's what's wrong with the entire Dinah/Vanessa dynamic (with Moniz and Tognoni in the role), is that Vanessa rarely stands up to the twit. As **** says, Dinah only ever cared about Vanessa when she was dying. The writers only seemed to use Dinah as a borderline psychopath. As good actresses as I think Moniz and Tognoni are, they deserved better. Maeve has a couple of good scenes with Tognoni where she finally just shuts Dinah's endless pity party down, but it's not nearly enough and it's way overdue. I stumbled upon Coop's death. OY VEY. Deas and Frankie D are chewing up the scenery. It's like they've forgotten how to act.

I don't mind that much that it was forgotten. I would've hated Reva being able to throw that in Van's face for years. They do have one big blow up over it, where Reva just guts Vanessa at a dinner party Kyle throws after taking over Lewis. But there's no real follow through for that either that I've found. There might've been a little more tension, where you're expecting another blow out, but it never happens. Reva starts hanging around Kyle, and the story shifts to the secret of Billy's maternity.

That's one of those stories you just shake your head and wonder WTF was going through Long's mind. The only real point of any of it was undoing the pregnancy that never should've been anyway. There's no real consequences--Reva gets out of an ill-advised marriage no one wanted, and Vanessa gets two weeks of rehab and is fine. Any argument between Van and Reva could've resulted in a fall causing the miscarriage. At least Maeve got an emmy nomination out of it.

Would've been better than the stupid clone. If not going back to her bitch roots, at least drop kicking dumb-ass M### out of her life. But now I can't stop imagining Vanessa (acting like her younger self) cutting Dinah down to size. Vanessa running around town crying to people for help is so much bullshit. Vanessa Chamberlain would've picked up, packed up and taken off on her own. Or at least planned to, instead morphing into Lily Walsh Snyder, perpetual damsel in distress. RME.

Wasn't Drew's mother Selena? Patti D'Arbanville wasn't happy and spoke up about it, and they fired her, didn't they?

Honestly, I think they had hoped to bring Jerry back, that's why no body was found. Explaining Maureen would've been a stretch (hey Rick could've substituted another dead body...he'd done it before) *sigh* imagine getting Cindy Pickett back?

Was it James' or Tom's child? I can't remember. Marland sure leaned on the "woman goes a bit nuts" vibe doesn't he? I guess it went hand-in-hand for their endless need for therapy.

My bad. Duh---I know I read something about her having that breakdown to hide her pregnancy. I guess I just thought the trial and Amanda's breakdown were further apart, storywise. The "trial stress miscarriage" seemed to be a bit of a thing---I swear ATWT's Margo has one around the same time under nearly identical circumstances. @alwaysAMC I truly can't watch him. Unless it's Vanessa tap-dancing on his heart nonchalantly at the end. That I could almost bring myself to watch on a loop. Oh, and apparently the word t-roll is verboten now. Otherwise, I'd have settled for calling him that.

It's much easier to write that a woman was a whore/mistress and regretted it than it ever was (or will be) for a man to admit he was a gigolo/paid sex worker, and expect the audience to forgive/forget/understand. Vanessa had traditionally been written as very smart about people. She's too skeptical and too observant to get fooled. It's one thing being a chump for your child, it's another to not see what's obvious. Yes, at one point, Nadine manipulated her, but Van always knew who and what Nadine was. Part of the decline of the daytime soap is the decline in writing, where characters are just suddenly "too stupid" to further the plot.

Evie was one of those characters you had to see her earlier stories to appreciate. (I would literally die to see her story with Jordan Clarke.) Evie hit her stride in the Ben story. I didn't find her as much annoying as very earnest and gentle. Then they didn't really know what to do with her, and after Rita left, she's just basically Jackie's talk to. There is a point where Vanessa is very irritated with Ross' attraction to her, which is kind of amazing to watch.

I hadn't really factored CB's return into Larkin's prospective pecking order. I was trying to think of how many pregnancies were written in also. Both Maeve's first and Kathleen Cullen's weren't. Lisa Brown's first and Maeve's second in 1984 were. Both of Kim's must have been. In 1982, the girl who had played Lanie Marler's must have been, as she was shown pregnant when Jackie was visiting her shortly before her death. But the actress wasn't a contract character at the time. I think Denise Pence was pregnant around that time, but her character was never pregnant. Oh...Lenore Kasdorf's pregnancy was. She's actually pregnant during the Hall of Mirrors sequence. Someone subbed into the role when Rita miscarried after Roger kidnapped her and the cabin started on fire.

Thanks! Everything is somewhere. I would've looked at soapcentral, but either they're down, or my computer refuses to go there anymore. True enough about Long probably never going to write Kyle as number 1 with Josh around. Hell, how many women were #2 to Reva?

I'm not sure my opinion counts on this one. LOL *sigh* poor Van, stuck raising another child.