2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I give Malone credit for trying to bring that aspect back with Angel Square in 1995. I wish the others at the show from then on had not moved away from what he was setting up. 

Which period of OLTL would you say had a creative upswing in the late '00s?

I haven't gone back to rewatch, but if memory serves I'd go about mid 2007 to early 2008.

I think from when Carlivati took over in August '07 to the end, really. The bloom definitely fell off the rose very quickly after the strike ended in mid-'08, and there were terrible stories throughout that remaining period (especially in 2010-2011), but there were also still a number of prominent good ones or good couples. I felt on a hit/miss ratio it overall marked a major change from the dismal dregs of JFP, Higley, Malone II and even Tomlin, the last two of whom were well-intentioned but had very few successes. I also think characters like the early material with Brody, Gigi and her son in Paris, TX, or Kish, Schuyler, Langston the orphan and her being linked to Dorian, etc. all convey the same sort of either damaged, outsider or working class status that goes back to the beginning.* But YMMV.

It definitely wasn't perfect, but I think of the shows Ron always knew OLTL best. It probably would've gotten far worse had he gotten to stay as long as he did at DAYS or GH, but OLTL is I think Carlivati's best, least ego-tainted work. Which is saying something given all the disgusting rape stories that have already aged terribly and others that are also quite bad. It's just a very mixed bag which also happened to have more hits than the rest.

As for Malone and Gottlieb/Horgan I think Angel Square was only part of the reversion to the classic ethos - I think everything with Marty, Andrew, the various social issue stories, etc. really took it back to that too. Even Viki's baroque DID saga was rooted in the same stuff daytime rarely discussed before OLTL.

(* - You can even see hints of this lineage in the brief 2013 revival, where Kelley Missal took the show by storm and was another iteration of the same damaged young woman/heroine that IMO went back throughout the show's history from Melissa Archer to Susan Haskell to Judith Light or even Andrea Evans/Fiona Hutchison, etc. But that's just my take.)

Edited August 2Aug 2 by Vee

1 hour ago, Vee said:

I also think characters like the early material with Brody, Gigi and her son in Paris, TX, or Kish, Schuyler, Langston the orphan and her being linked to Dorian, etc. all convey the same sort of either damaged, outsider or working class status that goes back to the beginning.* But YMMV.

I never go back and rewatch anything from this time, but I think I will because this is the era that really made me fall in love with and appreciate OLTL! I think your analysis of the show as always being about the outsiders of society is great, and it does perfectly describe that era. In fact, I gave the show up for good in 2010 when so many characters that fit into that vision were ruined and/or axed, many of them minorities in some way. Gone were Markko, Layla, Rachel, Greg, Kyle, and Fish. And in came the Fords.

9 minutes ago, All My Shadows said:

I never go back and rewatch anything from this time, but I think I will because this is the era that really made me fall in love with and appreciate OLTL! I think your analysis of the show as always being about the outsiders of society is great, and it does perfectly describe that era. In fact, I gave the show up for good in 2010 when so many characters that fit into that vision were ruined and/or axed, many of them minorities in some way. Gone were Markko, Layla, Rachel, Greg, Kyle, and Fish. And in came the Fords.

Yeah, it was pretty brutal and draining at the time. I don't think any of that long-running outsider vibe fully came back until the brief 2013 revival. Which was far from perfect, but the tone was serious again and there was an edge from the '90s that had returned. I really wish we could've seen more of what Susan Horgan brought back to the table despite the endless creative turnover at PP, as I think she has been consistently underrated in her work in daytime. She built a key foundation at ATWT that helped Marland reinvent that show, and her work as a steward post-Linda Gottlieb upholding Gottlieb's vision at OLTL for two more largely very strong years rarely gets credit.

9 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I definitely didn't think you were slighting the cast. I do agree about the overall show. I think there was a weird format which some broke through but many just couldn't, especially the parade of ingenues (even though I did have a soft spot for some, like Brenda). 

OLTL should have been a much more layered show. It's a shame that other than a year or two in the early '90s, it never was again after '81 or so.

ITA, after the AIDS quilt/Billy Douglas era, the show never again regained or lived up to its past glory.

On 7/30/2025 at 3:55 AM, Maxim said:

Oh, this brings me joy. ❤️ 

 I've seen Josh Griffith's name in the credits... for months and months now. Maybe as early as November 1991. The recordings rarely have the credits left, so thankfully I remember some of the dates.

Screenshot taken from November 11 1991 episode.

Screenshot taken from December 24th 1991 episode.

Screenshot taken from the June 12th 1992 episode.  

That makes sense--Malone's writing didn't really find its proper shape until he joined as associate (then co) HW...

54 minutes ago, anthonymolchan said:

Alicia Grande character ended on OLTL.

That is totally a Miami pop star name.

On 8/2/2025 at 3:09 PM, DRW50 said:

That's kind of you to say. 

That's Cord's mother, who has a complicated backstory that isn't too worth getting into. She fell in love with Clint again and her jealousy of Viki, along with her deep loathing of Tina, made her go batshit.

I agree that as 1992 goes along the show is more confident in itself, shaking off some of the trappings Malone and Gottlieb inherited.

Oh, that's why! Sounds like typical soap opera ex-from-hell type of stuff. Thank you for providing the context. I guess if I ever go back... I'll have to endure some camp and sci-fi outrageousness. I doubt I'll be able to. Anything sci-fi and paranormal and I'm out. I just can't take it seriously, but I don't judge people who do. Different strokes. I'm just a 2-women-with-bone-to-pick kinda guy. I don't need overly "smart" plots or anything too fantastical. No Devils and witches and that kind of spiel for me. 😁

12 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

That makes sense--Malone's writing didn't really find its proper shape until he joined as associate (then co) HW...

Honestly, every month since February, they've just kept getting better and better. May was the peak... when Dorian discovered her sister was alive, leading to that whole dramatic moment with Agatha jumping out the window. It was effective on so many levels. The whole storyline felt like it was pulled out from a gothic novel. All these hidden truths and secrets... resurfacing to haunt the characters. You can never tell who the real villain is and who the true hero might be. Absolutely brilliant. 

 

8 hours ago, Maxim said:

Honestly, every month since February, they've just kept getting better and better. May was the peak... when Dorian discovered her sister was alive, leading to that whole dramatic moment with Agatha jumping out the window. It was effective on so many levels. The whole storyline felt like it was pulled out from a gothic novel. All these hidden truths and secrets... resurfacing to haunt the characters. You can never tell who the real villain is and who the true hero might be. Absolutely brilliant. 

 

Malone (and I guess Griffith but knowing his novels, this seems to start with Malone) did love the Gothic.  Of course they went overboard on that with their second run on the soap (and Malone's solo AW brief run) though rumour is those stories were taken from the planned (with a filmed pilot) Fox late night supernatural soap Malone/Griffith/Gottlieb were doing, 13 Bourbon St.

I should revisit this era of OLTL.  I was 12-14 during that run but absolutely was obsessed with it.  

28 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I should revisit this era of OLTL.  I was 12-14 during that run but absolutely was obsessed with it.  

Yes! Absolutely. I think now with the eyes of a grown up you'll see it in a whole new way. 

On 8/2/2025 at 1:15 AM, DRW50 said:

I definitely didn't think you were slighting the cast. I do agree about the overall show. I think there was a weird format which some broke through but many just couldn't, especially the parade of ingenues (even though I did have a soft spot for some, like Brenda). 

OLTL should have been a much more layered show. It's a shame that other than a year or two in the early '90s, it never was again after '81 or so.

I agree. But you could not ignore the host of great actresses on this show. That's really how they coasted by imo. They deserved to be challenged!

I am diving back into fall '91 (October) and it's interesting to ponder what exactly they were toying with where or when. For example, Jon Russell and Luna are genuinely cute together but it is such a wild clash of two totally different eras of the show you never thought you'd see onscreen. Meanwhile, they had clearly begun to already plan for Jessica Tuck's potential exit in late August when they had her be notably under the weather at Hunter and Andy's wedding, and IIRC we've seen soap mag clippings from that time openly discussing that she is likely to exit and the show is making plans. What I wonder is when it was definite about JT, but I think the lupus story was threaded in very, very early, as that wedding was before Malone's name was officially on the show.

What makes me further curious is: Was the reinvention of Christopher Cousins' role on the show and the creation of Cain originally intended for Megan if she stayed? "Heinrich" is clearly playing a romantic spoiler to Jake and Megan, and I assume by now they knew Joe Lando was not coming back for good. (The pilot for Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman was shot in early '92, but it's close enough.) Or did they already know John Loprieno was leaving as Cord by now - I assume they must have - and were simply playing the man who would be Cain all around the canvas in a smart way?

Joey Thrower is so much more boyish than Kirk Geiger who would come later (which may be why he was recast, in addition to Geiger being a superior actor - I can't see Thrower's Kevin with Ellen Bethea's Rachel) but also genuinely winning and hot. it's a bit discordant in these overt sexual scenes with Lee Ann. But the show is much more sexually charged since Malone came on, something I talked about months back. There's a heat and intensity most soaps (other than possibly DAYS or BTG, and a handful of recent bits on GH) shy away from today. @EricMontreal22 I hope you'll dive back in too! Stay tuned for more 35+ years late thoughts!

Edited August 4Aug 4 by Vee

Scoring a mawkish Bo/Cassie 'memories' (of... the last 6 months they started dating and rapidly moved in together and got engaged, less than a year after his wife's death?) montage to a saccharine Barbara Cook song is such a boomer coastal thing to do with someone who was predominantly a Broadway name lol.

Gottlieb brought a lot of current music to the show as did Josh Griffith - they sure love playing Paula Abdul's underrated "Promise of a New Day" and R.E.M's "Shiny Happy People" in this period - but that montage was tonally a howler, as was I think their (probably Gottlieb as well, experimenting with popular music) trying to score Kevin and Stephanie to Otis Redding or something a couple months prior.

OLTL did keep up this awkward tradition to the end, though. In 2013 the bankrupt venture capitalists running Prospect Park blew the last of the show's petty cash using the Rolling Stones (which could not have come cheap) to score, of all things, a 30-second love scene between Jack Manning and his English teacher. Meanwhile Erika Slezak was hanging around the payroll office demanding her last check. (True story.)

Edited August 4Aug 4 by Vee

I think having Joey Thrower playing Kevin was effective because he was basically 18/19 and in love with an older woman Lee Ann.. who was using him unintentionally due to relationship issues she was having with Max.

I don't recall if the writers understood that Lee Ann was doing to Kevin what Max had done to her (i.e. an older person taking advantage of the naivete of a younger person)... but looking back at that era, the similarities are striking. 

I think once Lee Ann is revealed to not love Kevin and still married him, then Kevin is recast with Greiger to show a more bitter/cynical Kevin.

In retrospect, Lee Ann was like a first draft of Southern Blair.

In the second draft, they corrected the errors by giving Blair and Max some chemistry.  Blair being a Cramer Woman was ten times better that Lee Ann and Du Ann.  And, somehow, even though both characters made awful choices, Blair seems more sympathetic than Lee Ann, to me.