What's weird is I think it would be easier for me if one show went and then the other did a few months later. I'd feel overwhelmed this way, I wouldn't be as much. The biggest thing other than it breaking when it did is the fact it may happen before Soapnet goes off the air. Intellectually I had been bracing myself for shows to go once it went kaput.

Oh and while I understand how some viewers can watch old stuff on youtube, I find it difficult as I get annoyed over the shows being lost again.

I think Dark Shadows is a bit different. That show has had a cult following to this day, and the fans still hold conventions. It's still sort of part of the pop culture landscape. Most of the old shows are now long-forgotten, remembered by a handful of fans, the number of which probably wouldn't justify any type of DVD release. Also with these old shows, what if there are missing episodes that could screw up the continuity? That's something to take into consideration too. I really wish there was a venue for these shows too. I think I'd become a shut-in if an old-soap channel were to pop up

I don't think continuity is that important. You can just recap what was missed, with a few photos, like silent films or Doctor Who did with their missing material. Or you could just release the episodes you have, with only a brief intro, and they would probably be fairly self-contained enough, as soaps did so much recapping back then. It would be the episodes themselves that might get interest, moreso than a continuing story.

I think there is a way to release some of this and appeal to old fans - many of whom would probably be happy to pay for this type of release - and also some new fans who might see it as pastiche or kitsh or as a look at an old genre.

There's no point in not trying. There's a way to do it beyond just dumping reruns somewhere and then being shocked when these unsupported shows don't get a following. Besides, Soapnet had no more luck with their lousy movies and fifth rate reality programs than they did with the reruns.

Edited April 2, 201114 yr by CarlD2

I don't think continuity is that important. You can just recap what was missed, with a few photos, like silent films or Doctor Who did with their missing material. Or you could just release the episodes you have, with only a brief intro, and they would probably be fairly self-contained enough, as soaps did so much recapping back then. It would be the episodes themselves that might get interest, moreso than a continuing story.

I think there is a way to release some of this and appeal to old fans - many of whom would probably be happy to pay for this type of release - and also some new fans who might see it as pastiche or kitsh or as a look at an old genre.

There's no point in not trying. There's a way to do it beyond just dumping reruns somewhere and then being shocked when these unsupported shows don't get a following. Besides, Soapnet had no more luck with their lousy movies and fifth rate reality programs than they did with the reruns.

I hear ya. I was watching some 60s & 70s Edge of Night on youtube this week. That was some remarkable stuff...some brilliant writing and acting. Miles ahead of anything on TV today. I would kill to get DVDs of these, but I wonder if anyone else would.

I think there might be. I've seen soap magazines go for quite a bit of money - and the So Long Springfield things were all well attended.

I guess I just want someone to try.

Soaps are done, we all have known this for years now and discuss it. Yes, if this is true, it is coming earlier than expected but still, we knew it was going to happen in to not so distant future. I personally am surprised two might go, i thought one would go and ABC wopuld leave two and then cancel them off together if replace the one worked.

Fronsie is doing his job. Yes, he has hurt his soaps but i do not think it was intentional. He was trying to make them better and it didnt work. But in todays world it doesnt make since for ABC to have 3 hours of soaps when NBC & CBS combined half 2 and 1/2 hours. ABC Daytime is going to try what CBS has done, and its worked for them, and have cheaper shows to make more money. even if the ratings are less, the revenue can be more (look at atwt/the talk). I do think it is interesting they are going to try a reality show though, not a game show. I like that. I didnt mind The Talk because CBS didn really have a talk show, ABCD still has The View. But then again with Oprah leaving everyone is trying to capture that audience.

I dont want any soap cancelled, but they are just done. I am sure OLTL/AMCV will be gone this year, GH will go shortly after and YR/Days/BB down the line.

If AMC and OLTL were cancelled at the same time and were to air their last episodes on the same day, I could just imagine the uproar on this board if, given the chance, Agnes chose to return to one show over the other to write its final weeks. LOL.

I want to know why Brian Frons is hiding like the coward he is. So he is just going to let him employees not know until it suits his ego to tell them, what a bastard

Fronsie is doing his job. Yes, he has hurt his soaps but i do not think it was intentional. He was trying to make them better and it didnt work.

If he was trying to make them better then AMC would have had a different producer years ago.

I'm sure he does care about the soaps, but mostly as a template for what he wants, not what worked best. He was hugely responsible for the damage done to AMC.

If these rumors are true (and it sure looks that way), I'd like to apologize for criticizing so many last week (for getting so exicted after hearing this rumor from another internet source) and admit that I'm the one who's the real fool! However, before one can make the conclusion that I am a total moron, I still believe (as I previously stated) that I was correct when I predicted that AMC will not be cancelled before OLTL; I just failed to realize that AMC was in danger of getting axed at the same time as OLTL. (I felt this way not only due to AMC's much higher name recognition, but also because cancelling that soap so soon after the move to Los Angeles would be the equivalent of flushing tons of money down the toilet.)

The comments that Jack has posted have been among the most insightful that I have ever read on any message board, and I am so greatful for the effort he has put into them. Given his vast knowledge of the industry, I'd really like to ask him how Frons and the other ABC executives so badly miscalculated when they chose to move AMC to Los Angeles. How could they have made such a huge blunder, and--given that--how can investors and other ABC/Disney stakeholders have any confidence in the future of the new programming (that will be put into place by these executives) that is being produced for ABC Daytime?

Also, before I conclude, I do feel that if ABC wants to put an end both AMC and OLTL, it would be best to cancel both at the same time (as opposed to cancelling one of the soaps now, and then giving the other soap a mere six to twelve extra months to live). It would be very disrespectful to viewers of the soap that was spared if ABC essentially gave them the impression that their soap was safe, only to then cancel it so soon afterwards; from a business standpoint, it could result in AMC/OLTL viewers being even more pissed-off at ABC than if both soaps were dropped at once (which, would in turn hurt ratings for the replacement programming). Of course, the scenario that I am warning ABC against is exactly what happened at NBC with the fiasco that resulted from the way the cancellations of AW and SuBe were handled. I'm really interested in Jack's thoughts on this as well.

I'm not certain that the rumors are true, but after talking to colleagues of mine it is clear that something is in the works. This move to cancel both at once would not surprise me at all, it would have eventually happened any way.

As for the move to LA, if things had played out differently the move would have proven to be successful. Instead the ratings continued to drop and the move just continued and the show is still bleeding money.

The repercussions of canceling both at once is not a concern. Soaps have a very limited audience, this is proven with the ratings. Talk shows and reality shows have a broader appeal. So lets say they alienate 1/2 the viewers of AMC & OLTL, there are other viewers in America that are currently watching something else at 1pm & 2pm that may be inclined to check out ABC's new shows.

I was just about to ask you if you worked in the industry Jack! Your professional knowledge (and rather corporate tone) remind me as a viewer that this is a BUSINESS. These shows are simply not viable anymore. Keep posting, it is eye opening (although a little depressing)..

Ditto to every word..

I've worked in the industry for a few years. Worked on several soaps, syndicated talk shows, cable productions, been on the network side, I've seen a lot of this business.

My take on all this?

Canceling both is all about Brian Frons' ego, and saving face.

He bet on the wrong horse by sending AMC to L.A., a move that would not recoup the costs of the move unless the show remained on air for at least 3-5 more years (at this point, it's been less than 2). But canceling the higher-rated (in the key advertiser-friendly demo) OLTL looks bad to the bosses, and also the bottom line. Also, canceling AMC leaves open the question of possibly moving OLTL to L.A. to AMC's abandoned digs...but such a move would incur more costs, and seems like a poor investment on a show that might only last another year or two, tops.

So how to solve the problem, and still look good to your bosses?

Cancel both, and say hey, we'll save all this money by airing these cheaper shows, and soaps are dying anyway.

Problem solved. Face saved.

This has nothing to do with his ego and saving face. Disney/ABC is happy with Frons. While some of his decision have irritated fanbases for the past 9 years, from a business standpoint they have helped prolong the longevity of the ABC soaps. OLTL would never move to LA, they would not invest that kind of money again to lose it with a cancelation in another year or two.

You're probably right. That's one of the reasons I can't believe it's just about costs. I think it's also about spite and ego - this is what has been destroying ABC Daytime for years now.

I would love to believe we will one day be able to see everything through our own choice, many years of material, but if the big money has its way, I doubt it will happen. They hate Netflix, they want to limit or make people pay big for streaming video, etc. It's all about control.

The studios and networks hate Netflix/iTunes/etc because they have to share profit with them. If the networks had their own sites for streaming they wouldnt have to share the profits. Hulu is the first example of this with several networks sharing ownership. It's not about making the viewer pay, its about not splitting the revenue.

The capping that the ISPs are starting to push through and which the networks haven't argued about would also hurt Hulu.

I guess I question how much effort was really made to save a show when the first thing you hear about the move is that the storage facility was booked incorrectly and they're paying through the nose.

At best they were incompetent, IMO, and that's why I think if they had really wanted to save these shows they would have made serious changes. Instead they seem to be banking on the idea that a new show produced as cheaply as possible and targeted to as tiny an audience as possible will automatically be enough.

Let's not forget that these shows were not much better under Angela Shapiro 10 to 15 years ago. AMC was a clusterf**k in the late 90s and early 2000s for most of the time under Burke, with McTavish and Passanante, and then Culliton, sandwiching a very brief decent period under Agnes. OLTL was a raging hot mess for most of the time, with people like Pam Long and Claire Labine failing to generate anything remotely watchable, and then viewers were saddled with the JFP-McTavish's Rappaport 24x7 crap. GH had just grown very stale and moldy under Shapiro's BFF Wendy Riche. I think Frons really tried to whip these shows into shape and give them a more contemporary feel, which was definitely needed. That was his mandate. He probably wound up screwing with these shows' cores and identities more than he should have, with AMC probably hurt the most, but I don't think things are much worse now than they were under Shapiro. I think the decline in ratings has more to do with the availability of a gazillion other means of entertainment and less so with any perceived drop in quality.

I think Disney has a lot to do with the death of the ABC soaps - they lost their identities and became more and more gimmicky and unpleasant. But never have I seen any soap constantly push and push an unpopular couple the way AMC has Rylee. They may not be the only reason for ratings losses but I would put them very high on the list. Their only big fan seems to be Frons.

There's also the matter of Julie Hanan Carruthers, who may not be as bad as speculated but who would have been replaced a long time ago on a network that cared.

This is the P&G soaps all over again. Incompetent people stay around because no one cares.

I think Disney has a lot to do with the death of the ABC soaps - they lost their identities and became more and more gimmicky and unpleasant. But never have I seen any soap constantly push and push an unpopular couple the way AMC has Rylee. They may not be the only reason for ratings losses but I would put them very high on the list. Their only big fan seems to be Frons.

There's also the matter of Julie Hanan Carruthers, who may not be as bad as speculated but who would have been replaced a long time ago on a network that cared.

This is the P&G soaps all over again. Incompetent people stay around because no one cares.

True, the agenda pushing is probably worse under Frons, especially with couples like Rylee who've never had any appeal. They must have appeal to someone, but whatever it is is lost on me. I felt the same way about Zendall. Agreed regarding Disney. Thing went downhill when they came in and changed noticeably when they took over. They came in around the time Julia and Noah were about to be married on AMC. When Julia had a dream that she was Cinderella, and other characters started commenting that Cinderella is her favorite character, well, I knew that Disney was in the house, and probably not for the better.

Let's not forget that these shows were not much better under Angela Shapiro 10 to 15 years ago. AMC was a clusterf**k in the late 90s and early 2000s for most of the time under Burke, with McTavish and Passanante, and then Culliton, sandwiching a very brief decent period under Agnes. OLTL was a raging hot mess for most of the time, with people like Pam Long and Claire Labine failing to generate anything remotely watchable, and then viewers were saddled with the JFP-McTavish's Rappaport 24x7 crap. GH had just grown very stale and moldy under Shapiro's BFF Wendy Riche. I think Frons really tried to whip these shows into shape and give them a more contemporary feel, which was definitely needed. That was his mandate. He probably wound up screwing with these shows' cores and identities more than he should have, with AMC probably hurt the most, but I don't think things are much worse now than they were under Shapiro. I think the decline in ratings has more to do with the availability of a gazillion other means of entertainment and less so with any perceived drop in quality.

You forgot to mention Angie's other BFF Linda Dano! Nothing against Linda Dano but to force a character on all these shows the way it went down is not a way to run daytime division.

Frons may had good intentions but he is simply like so many other failed network execs, he interfered way to much in the day to day operations of the shows.

My all-time favorite storyline was when Triple H "kidnapped" and married Stephanie McMahon on the show only to find out that Stephanie was in fact in on the dubious plan in order to oust her daddy from the company. That was some serious soapy drama. If only our current soaps could pull off the plots, we'd be back in business.

In the late 90s the WWE was the best soap on TV. My favorite story was when Vince McMahaon and his trashy girlfriend Trish were drugging Linda McMahon so they could carry on an affair, but then when Vince turned on Trish and sided with his evil daughter Stephanie, Trish secretly stopped giving Linda the drugs. The wedding you talk of was a classic. They asked if anyone knew why the wedding of Stephanie and Edge could not take place and HHH barges in with proof he is in fact married to Stephanie. You gotta love it.