Marceline I love that idea of a goodbye party. Instead with both ATWT and GL people were holding out hope they would come back and just postponing their mourning.

You would think... and then someone says "Gee! Has any soap ever done an abortion storyline? Ever?" in the All My Children thread, and you realize... not so much.

Oh Lord, point taken!

AllMyShadows, I agree with everything you said, and thank you for getting who I meant by the "ultimate PTB" and for expressing just what I feel about them.

You know, so many of us here talk and get so involved and I can't help but think about my grandparents and great aunts and uncles. They watch a story or stories every day without fail, they have never touched a message board, thought of ratings or even taken note of the names of the PTB, ultimate or not-so-ultimate. But they have clocked more hours of loyal soap viewing than most of us here. They can't talk regimes, but they can talk character and events with first hand knowledge. I say this all to say that I believe from the bottom of my heart, once their soaps are gone they will have their little, "Hmph, well I guess that's it" moment and quietly roll with it, accepting whatever new fills that hour or exercising the remote for the first time in years. I feel like the youngest soap fans will be similarly resilient. I'd like to see an accurate poll of the level of soap viewers' involvement and investment. How many TVs are on just for the sake of being on. How many lurkers are just interested in recaps and spoilers and don't pay the BTS stuff any mind. There are but so many registered users on but so many soap boards, I know we're not in the millions yet alone a million. Not to say only those in the online soap community "care". But I do wonder, just how many people will truly care when they are gone, how many will have a much easier time moving the hell on (especially considering that many of us here are already loading our luggage onto that boat).

The networks keep going after the same (shrinking) pool of potential viewers. Soaps aren't all the much different than 1985 yet all other media has evolved--everything from the primetime drama to the situation comedy. Soaps need to catch up, aim for a far wider audience.

The very fact that PGP was afriad of family values groups and toned down story proves this point. These shows either need to take some risk or move to Hallmark and chase a niche crowd.

Which is so hard for me to wrap my brain around because I've always lived in or close to major cities on the east coast. Nothing on a soap have I ever found truly shocking or morally offensive as much as stupid or poorly executed. Violence and rape get free passes (I'm just wondering what if any ignorant comments have been made about Michael's prison rape on GH), and then you have a show like OLTL that is so gay without being gay yet no one cries foul unless two of the 37 shirtless white dudes hold hands. It's all so dumb what people get up in arms about. Still I have to wonder who's really doing the objecting here, people telling the networks what they don't want to see or the networks telling middle America what they don't want to see then sneaking over to us cosmopolitan bookenders and blaming the fly over states for the soaps' lack of progressiveness. Not sure that I buy what they're selling.

Oh my God, I'm sorry, my shirtless white dude comment was no reflection on you!

Dude, get out of my head! Rauch and Lillian Hayman were definitely who I was thinking of while trying to string those thoughts together. Imagine if the internet was around in '86 and someone reported on that? I doubt it would have had any effect in rallying anybody together to right the wrong, but just the thought of *everybody* being able to see just how shitty some of these people can be is too great. But no, with people like Jamey and Nelson and all of them, they'd put out some ridiculous crap about "ONE recently fired actress on an EAST COAST soap was fired in the parking lot!!" And, like fools, all of us would speculate and speculate and "start the beating of the drums" to save the wrong person.

I don't know if it would be that tough to figure out.

Of course a lot of people would automatically say "No one is entitled to a job forever!" and "______ was fired, why can't she be fired?" and anything she went through would be shrugged off. There's a lot of cynicism from the top down today, where ugly decisions are "just business," yet other actors are treated like china dolls.

Oh my God, I'm sorry, my shirtless white dude comment was no reflection on you!

I was flattered, not worried Thought everyone posted their real pix and, yes, it is me.

I remember, back in the day, when ATWT got all that protest when they hired the 'porn' film crew. I think the whines are organic, someone must be going to those mega churches and watching the 700 club.

The networks are still chasing the same viewers as they were back in 1980: middle class stay at home moms. The problem is that this grouping has gotten smaller and the networks are afraid to rock the boat and diminish already slight ratings. I remember Kay Adlen saying that ratings dropped hard in the 1970's when Kay had her lesbian moment.

Society has changed a lot since then but soaps are still pandering to that uber-conservative housewife. I think KISH and NUKE really freaked some of these people out because it reminded them that their kid, too, might turn out gay. I'd love to compare the income/regional demos on a show like Brothers and Sisters or Modern Family v's OLTL.

Before I lived in NYC, I lived in fly over America and these really are two different societies. Maybe this is best expressed when you look at MSNBC/Fox ratings in major US cities compared to the heartland. The numbers do a lot to show just how differently various parts of the nation look at politics and the issue of norms.

If Debbi and Darnell leave it's by choice. Let's get real, they're both black and we know how much soaps value minorities, so how much could they really be making? If 2 year old newbies on Y&R can make more than Kristoff St. John, then that should tell you something. Since it's obvious the soap getting the massive cut is GH, I'd say it's probably mainly GH stars being asked to take paycuts. I wouldn't be surprised if they're asking Steve Burton and Maurice Benard as well.

Exactly. I actually don't see Debbi going unless it's due to her illness--she's always been up there talking supportively of the move despite her living suituation, and her and Jesse are virtually the only black actors on any ABC soap right now who get *any* promotion whatsover (and it's not lots...)

I can't imagine it either...

She may be a vet in the industry relatively speaking but I doubt it either. Even when she was front burner (for way too long) Kyrstle has NEVER had any ABC promotion, etc.

I don't think MEK makes all that much anymore either, but I can't remember the source. I get the feeling with him that he's just happy to stick around at all.

Another thing about blind items, they should be both juicy and fun and news like this is not fun, it does not help soap fan morale. Arm the viewer, arm the people who make your site relevant and who can **PERHAPS** do something about it by rallying the troops. Even if it'll most likely be in vain. But dropping depressing bits of information about something we can do nothing to change, like, why do we even bother?

EXACTLY. Blind items are meant to be fun to speculate about, etc. This is why it just seems so snarky, particularly from someone who claims to love the genre, want to see its future, etc.

Ausiello's items though are different in the sense that he covers a whole lot of shows. With soaps, we have six choices of programs.

I also never get a feeling of mean spiritedness or "na na na" from Ausiello (and he has the support of a fairly major company behind him--not that it means a lot anymore, but it's not the same as the DC blog...)

I've said it before and will say it again: With the advent of Tivo, DVR, On Demand, and Web, the notion of a TV schedule as we know it is dead. I'd love to see a show like Y&R shift to primetime and be able to play by the more liberal standards. A network show like Criminal Minds, for example, makes daytime look str8 up puritanical in terms of the use of sexuality and language. Cable often takes things a step further. I think a lot of younger people look at soaps as too conservative, out of step and touch with current cultural norms.

I know I'm in the minority, but I find Criminal Minds pretty... awful. It is an example though how networks seem to allow sexuality when it's seeped in depraved (and graphic) violence, and not really otherwise. I don't think soaps would honestly gain anything by being allowed to do more the way primetime can (and is there a lot more they COULD do by network primetime standards except for more graphic violence? We're still in the post nipplegate era and remember soaps tried the gratuitous male "naked ass shot" at the same time as primetime shows liek NYPD Blues and even Once and Again were, it will be a while yet before they're allowed to again).

When AMC goes, I don't want to have a Save AMC rally, I want to have a grand old goodbye party for it. A combination between an Irish wake and a New Orleans jazz funeral. I want to bring people together for food, music and memories and say farewell in a way that will make Aggie proud.

Even in the current state I don't wanna see AMC go (or OLTL for that matter) but I'm completely with you hre. Maybe Aggie even has enough strength in her to pen a final episode (of course some seem toi think she's been penning any scene that's half way decent for years now )

I gave up on Criminal Minds several years ago. I realized it was basically a well-acted and written snuff movie, and increasingly I got the feeling that whoever was running the show got off on this type of ugliness.

Mandy Patinkin also left because it was so ugly.

Mandy Patinkin also left because it was so ugly.

Let's be fair: Mandy Patinkin leaves EVERYTHING. LOL.

True, he's a drama queen, but when he talked about how being on the show started making him think back to the Holocaust, or whatever it was he said, I kind of understood, even though he left in a very unprofessional way.