But, I'm sorry, Kruger <<<<<<Bashioum. There's just no comparison. Totally invested in her.

Exactly.

Bashioum's Mackenzie had levels.

Kruger's Mackenzie was a glorified Felicity extra.

Jill's hatred was so delicious! And, as for the way Billy treated her... well, sure it was horrible at times, but it made dramatic sense and seemed like the reaction a horny teenager would have. Besides, with Jill as your mother, oy!

Edited November 13, 201114 yr by YRBB

Ashley was a better actress, but all I thought the character did, after a promising start, was trip over her lower lip, as Billy twitched and Jill wrung her hands and plotted.

Not really.

The character didn't become useless until Kruger played her.

Everything that happened prior to Kruger was character driven & fairly complex.

Jill wasn't a two dimensional villain, Billy wasn't a generic good guy & Mackenzie (while definitely a heroine) wasn't perfect.

It bothered me at the time, especially the way Billy treated Jill.

He didn't treat her any worse than she treated him.

I thought Mackenzie had a lot of potential, when we first met her. I wanted to see more of her with Brock. I wanted to see her develop. I just didn't care about the teen love. I thought it made her so downbeat, and since Billy was aged so quickly after being offcamera for a few years, I couldn't buy his anger. It just seemed like tic-laden tantrums to me, at the time. I have never been crazy about what the Billy character represents.

But I certainly know it was a very popular pairing and story at the time.

I thought Mackenzie had a lot of potential, when we first met her. I wanted to see more of her with Brock. I wanted to see her develop.

That's the thing. She did develop.

Mackenzie wasn't like Lily who has pretty much (other than Davetta's tenure) been exactly the same since she was SORAS'ed.

By the time Ash Bash left (initially) she had grown from a kid that (understandably) ran from conflict to a strong, responsible young adult.

I thought it made her so downbeat

But it was an earned downbeat like Nina's cynicism or Traci's low self esteem.

And she even grew out of that (to an extent) as she matured.

and since Billy was aged so quickly after being offcamera for a few years, I couldn't buy his anger.

Why not?

Jill treated Billy almost exactly like she treated Phillip.

And it was usually things Jill did that made Billy angry with her.

I have never been crazy about what the Billy character represents.

What does he represent other than a flawed character who is the child of an equally (if not more) flawed character?

But I certainly know it was a very popular pairing and story at the time.

But that's the thing.

They weren't popular because they were an insta-couple like Luke/Noah or Kim/Michael or Ford/Jessica where the show & other characters were sacrificed to make them work.

They were popular because Y&R wrote them well & the characters (and actors) had real chemistry.

And gain Jill wasn't a cardboard villain like (Tom/Meggie/Carmen) or a vet made to act OOC (like Lily Walsh or poor Rae Woodard),

And it was usually things Jill did that made Billy angry with her.

I got a lot of hatred and hostility from Billy to Jill as soon as he came back to town. It seemed like that was the only real aspect of their relationship which was written for - that Jill was this harridan of a mother who'd let him down. I feel like the character of Billy has often just been a club for the show to beat Jill with, which I think has limited her story potential. If she'd had a son she had a more rounded relationship with there would have been even less need for Cane.

I got a lot of hatred and hostility from Billy to Jill as soon as he came back to town.

Which wasn't totally about Jill & was eventually fixed.

It seemed like that was the only real aspect of their relationship which was written for - that Jill was this harridan of a mother who'd let him down.

Not true.

Billy did feel abandoned but a lot of that was very in character for Jill.

She wasn't initially happy letting Billy go (prior to SORAS) but it was very believable she wasn't there for him growing up (since she acted the same way with Phillip).

I feel like the character of Billy has often just been a club for the show to beat Jill with, which I think has limited her story potential.

Billy Miller's Billy definitely but not David's Billy.

David's Billy had a complex relationship with Jill (one that can't be reduced to good guy/bad guy).

John willingly (if not always happily) worked with Jill to parent Billy & he didn't approve of Billy's behavior & attitude toward Jill or Jill's attitude & interference in Billy's life fairly often.

In fact John was more strict with Billy than Jill & he also dealt with Billy's anger on several occasions.

If she'd had a son she had a more rounded relationship with there would have been even less need for Cane.

She doesn't need Cane even without a "good" son.

Jill & the character Billy had a classic Y&R parent/child relationship which has been ruined due to writing & agendas (much like Jack & Ashley's, Victoria & Nick's, Drucilla & Liv's, etc).

However Jill as a character (like every other character) has been a victim of bad writing too (sleeping with bartenders, being used & dumped by Tucker, total absence from business related stories).

There is no comparison of the current Jill & the well written Jill of the past.

Same with Jill & Billy's relationship.

Edited November 13, 201114 yr by DeeeDee

I liked Bashioum but Rachel Kimsey will always be 'my' Mackenzie. It never bothered me that her Mac was such a departure from the previous incarnations.

Kruger was horrendous, as was Clementine Ford.

Kimsey's Mackenzie was terrible.

It wasn't that she was a departure.

It was that she was a completely different character.

Much like the difference between Tom's Victoria & Heinle's Victoria.

Ford began rough but was fired (unfortunately) just as she was beginning to make the character her own.

Edited November 13, 201114 yr by DeeeDee

JT/Mac there 2005/2006 were boring and dreadful that I was happy to see Kinsey leave. The same problems happened for the second go around there 2009/2010, but once Ford and Luckinbill started to heat up together and JT&Mac were suddenly more interesting than Billy and Victoria and Cane and Lily they both got the axe. Go figure.

The biggest problem was waiting six years before trying to bring Billy and Mac together again with no interaction beforehand, not even at Katherine's funeral which was weird. I think Bashioum burnt all of her bridges there in 2005. I recall at one point she tested for Marina on GL but Kit Paquin got the role thus Bashioum got rehired at Y&R. It didn't work out for either actresses obviously.

I think on paper the whole story about Katherine switching the babies sounded good but the execution was absolutely terrible. Long before Cane appeared we Amber and that psychic that was always on Montel Williams running amok along with some shocking scenery chewing by Walton the with infamous "SHE GAVE IT AWAY!!!" moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM03xoEctVU

Did you guys get a load of this clip?.....

Jill and Ryan...Oyy...... I don't know why but there is something about that pairing that makes me feel a little sick inside. It has nothing to do with the age difference because this is totally in character for Jill (at that time) to fall for younger men, but i don't know, it seems too cliched that they pair the best looking guy on the show at that time, with the show's snob/cougar. This clip is hilarious though, i'm sure they had scenes like this with Brenda as Jill when Don first started.

when Ryan came on, did people actually think they would try to chem test him with Jill later? I guess they started interacting only when he started dating Nina, as i read in Carl's SOD 1992 synopses that Jill wanted to make sure he was right for Phillip as a father figure.

Scott Reeves must have gotten his chest wax, cause his body is hairless now on GH

Edited November 14, 201114 yr by yr9190

I wouldn't say the idea of the pairing made me sick, other than the likelihood of him being all judgmental and annoying. i do think that it was one of those stories which could have been better developed. I can see Ryan helping Jill during the "Who Shot Victor?" story, and Jill falling in love with him, but knowing this wouldn't happen, then dating Keith Dennison, and having a lot of tension with Tricia when Tricia got involved with Ryan. I think the story always should have been them never actually getting together, but maybe some feelings involved.

As for this clip, it's funny, but also a little crass. I guess it does reflect Jill's view, in a way, but things like the closeup of his underwear bulge...I don't know, it seems desperate.

I always wanted them to try Jill/Ryan. Perhaps even do a Jill/Victoria/Ryan triangle just as Tricia was exiting. Or, like you mentioned, as a result of the "Who Shot Victor?" story.

I posted a short Y&R recap here from, I guess, late 1974? If anyone knows an exact date that would be great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hgYUl_jHWs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL