Y&R Episodes Discussion, Week of October 26, 2009

[DRW50]

I guess from my point of view, I don't necessarily "hope" this stuff will fail, but I am very very cautious of what the idea of "success" will be. For instance, last year I got to hear over and over and over all types of talk about how Y&R was back, and all I kept thinking was, how can Y&R be back when they have humiliated and utterly marginalized Nikki, one of their central characters? Or when they've made Adam so pathetic and impossible to care about? Is having an entire story which boils down to nothing more than "Victor is awesome, either say it or be destroyed," a way to a comeback? And sure enough, the show fell apart within a few months.

Is the comeback going to just be more of the same grunting and posturing from the usual suspects, a big flash, followed by more mediocrity? Where is the long term repair work which shows respect for characters who go beyond controlling alpha thugs? Is there any effort made to stop being so hostile to women and minorities? Or to honor family or friendships? Or to write stories which aren't about the psycho of the month?

[MarkH]

And, just to be perfectly clear: I think we want the same things here! What I think I'm seeing is slow steps back to healthy choices from Sharon and Ashley. (Yes, both aren't "cured"...but maybe they're taking steps toward being more in control of their destinies). So far, Emily is also relating to men on the canvas the way they deserve to be dealt with....but she also blinks when Jack says "don't judge me till you get to know who I am today". These are good signs.

The Terroni saga is over. Restless Style is now the bully pulpit for a bombastic and immature young man...and that fits a lot better than when it was grown adults (like Phyllis and Jack) using it to damage people. It now seems clear that RS will go down in flames...and that's a fitting ending for Billy's folly.

I think on a scale of 1-10, this show went from a 7-8 last November to maybe a 3 when Colleen died. I'll be pleased if we can claw back to a 5-6 before next Spring's 26-week transition point. (These numbers are all subjective, of course. I don't expect others to agree exactly).

This is a test of a new color background to hide spoilers.

[Sylph]

How on Earth did you come up with a color 1C2837?

[MarkH]

Does it work? Toups says black is not effective in hiding the text. I think this color is more accurate match for the letters. It translates to Red: 28, Green: 40, Blue: 55. So I'm trying to come up with a better/acceptable inline spoiler-hider.

[Sylph]

Yes, it does.

If you really want black, you have to choose black text colour as well as background.

Like this.

[Sylph]

Basically, the text colour needs to be the same colour of the background. Let my try if it works with red.

[DRW50]

I would like to see this, but it seems to me that Ashley's story is about her pretending to be fine, when she's really a mess. They were laying the groundwork today for Victor to come back and pick up the pieces.

Sharon's story is once again all about a man, and conflict between Nick and Adam. She's an afterthought.

[MarkH]

So, as long as Sharon and Ashley have problems, this will be a problem for you?

For me, it is okay if they are unstable, as long as other women on the canvas are not. These two could be batsh!t crazy for the rest of their days, and that wouldn't necessarily bother me. Ashley has a long history of this. Sharon--it's newer--but it connects with her long history of throwing herself at men whenever she's troubled (Diego, Cameron, Cassie's father, Victor...and more recently Billy/Jack/Nick).

But let's also be clear...in daytime, all men and women usually have some problem...some difficulty of adjustment...that drives story. It's not insanity...but it is sadness, longing, disappointment, hurt confusion, etc.

[DRW50]

What is Sharon's problem?

Her problem is that she is all about men posturing and strutting. She is nothing on her own. Look at how quickly they had her get over baby Faith's death. She's just well enough to be pushed into a story with Adam and to have Nick fume with jealousy. Then, after they start having sex, or whatever, we may hear, "She's not well! She's still having problems!" She's still sane enough to be involved in hot sexual relationships, but not so sane that they can't sweep her choices under the rug.

Just like her other problem, which she supposedly had since she was a teenager, was reduced to various men bedding her and a WTD story. They trivialize Sharon to the nth degree.

Ashley's problems are basically the same, in that they are aided and abetted by men. Ashley herself has no real identity beyond cold and crazy. Don't you miss a time when Ashley was more than that?

If there was something else on the show then it might not be as unpleasant to watch, but since nearly every other woman on the show basically revolves around needing a man, wanting a man, being destroyed by a man, it just becomes too much.

[DeeeDee]

Pretty much.

Ford, Driscoll & their characters serve one purpose.

To be constantly torn down by TPTB & fans to prop other characters.

[DeeeDee]

There's a huge difference between being Realist & being Rush.

[MarkH]

See, I'm not seeing a difference from Bill Bell's era. Sharon was initially all about Nicholas and Matt Clark. Then she got married. And she was all about Nick. Except when she was about Diego or Cameron or Victor...

Until the Cassie story happened, or the complications with little Noah, I don't really recall her ever not being about a man. She never even had a job. And she (and Nick) have this long history of romantic confusions and infidelities. I'm not seeing today's Sharon as a sudden misogynistic turn from what she has always been.

When I talk with my cohorts over on usenet, they tell me ED's Ashley was always cold, hoity-toity, holier-than-though. I remember HATING her when she took Victor away from Nikki...there is still a clip on Youtube where a young MTS begs ED not to take her husband. And ED just sneers.

When I think of ED's Ashley (I'm ignoring the other ones), I remember a few pre-Victor romantic dramas (Marc Mergeron, Eric Garrison)...but nothing really "took". And with Victor, I'm remembering their romance a series of dramas punctuated by her insanity--her insanity after Brent Davis, her insanity after the abortion, her insanity after losing Robert. Ashley has a long history of going nuts surrounding paternity, Victor, and paternity. Some would say she lost her mind when she ran around stealing sperm.

We're on the same page here. But I'm missing something with these complaints about Ashley and Sharon, who seem perfectly consistent to me with what they have ever been. What am I missing?

[DeeeDee]

The differences are ridiculous.

Bill Bell & Kay Alden's Sharon had issues but she had a POV & a voice of her own.

Now everything about the character has been decimated to suit the plot.

Same with Katherine, Nikki, Ashley, Jill, Olivia, Victoria, Lauren, Patty Jane, Colleen, Mackenzie & even Giggly Heffa.

The ONLY two that have escaped being almost totally ruined are Traci & Nina.

Both of whom took huge hits but survived due to TPTB's agendas.

[DRW50]

You don't think that having her sleep around with all these men under the guise of mental illness is misogynistic? The whole "oh she can't control herself or her lady parts, but isn't this kind of hot" tone of the writing, especially when she was with Billy?

Sharon's main love story was with Nick. She had to struggle with class issues, with Nikki's rejection of her, with Matt's rape, and then with the uneasy transition from a young happy newlywed couple to sudden pregnancy, and a husband who refused to believe she hadn't deliberately gotten herself pregnant. Then she got the Cassie story, and Nick's affair with Grace. Most of this had nothing to do with being some object between men. She was a character in her own right. She had some depth.

She did become degraded over time but I don't think it was until recently that the show just completely gave up writing for her beyond making up tragedies so she can bedhop or so men can fight over her.

I hated the sperm stealing story and I thought it destroyed her character. But for a long time there was still more to Ashley than just craziness and Victor. She used to have a job. She used to have friends. She used to sort of tolerate some members of her family. All of that is basically gone. If they were going to bring her back, why would they just bring her back for a laughable miracle pregnancy, a tired and offensive gaslighting story, followed by a baby switch which still has her teetering on the edge?

I'm sure we can all say that it's some type of history for Ashley to be a basketcase, and for Nikki to live for no other reason than to be degraded by Victor, but I think it's a very lazy writing choice, and very depressing to watch. It's also extremely thin. It's not so much what the story is as it's about how you tell the story. This team has not told any proper stories for Ashley or for Nikki, or for Sharon. They're not characters, they're cutouts.

[YRBB]

Exactly. It worries me when people say that they see no difference in the way the characters are being presented, and written now, with how they used to be. These writers have mainly picked up one characteristic of each character and have presented it in a loop; suddenly, these women are not multidimensional anymore, they do the same thing, the same way and bother with the same things all the time. And, when they bother to show something different, it's because they need to do so in order to advance horrid plotlines. They all speak the same, there is a feeling they would do anything, it's just a mess...