I wonder... what do you think would happen if they got Marguerite Ray to reprise the role? I'm not sure.... her Mamie always seemed so STUCK UP, and she bothered me, while I LIKED Redd's portrayal. I also loved the Mamie/Jill conflicts, those were always great... but I felt Ray never clicked with Walton. Ray and Dickson had great chemistry (two stuck up bitches trying to one up the other), as did Walton and Redd. Even if they didn't get Dru... I KNOW she's not connected to the Winters, but I LOVED Stephanie Williams' portrayal of Amy, I wouldn't have minded re-inrtroducing her, and continuing the realtionship she and Traci had. But anyway..... when I spoke of Neil being "ashamed" of Dru... this is what I'm referring to:

I was an Olivia fan to the very end and it was Dru's protective instincts over Olivia that identified her as an ally. Would I have liked Olivia absent Dru- probably not! Would I have accepted Dru without Mamie? Never. But that balance was in the writing and the portrayals, and this portion of the cast made great use of that.

Introducing a new family has to be done carefully. It has to generate through fan reaction- "more of (new character)". You're talking about catching lightning in a bottle for a second time on a show that prides itself on mining history. Look at how long it took for people to take to the Baldwins. Then there's going to be the ultimate problem: you have to have writers who do their research and are capable of listening to the actors portraying the character. Then those same writers have to segment that audience to those watching the soaps. You say gospel, and MAB gives us Anna. What I perceive to be the problem is there are too many writers out there who think five minutes with their "black friends" constitutes as research into the prevailing conditions we want to see reflected on television. They have no idea what POC talk about when they're not around. They think they're seeing the forest and not just the trees.

It doesn't have to be stereotypical, or "popular", but it needs to come from some honest insight- honest and stereotypical is not the same thing. Then they need to be prepared to hear, "That's not right. That would never happen. This character would never react in this way." The biggest treasure they have yet to make real use of is Neil constantly playing second fiddle to the Newman kids. Instead, they gave the ex-alcoholic a club. I imagine the only reason no one speaks up is because the daytime medium is extremely difficult and no one wants to be that pain in the ass who slows the working day down.

Yep!

My main thing about the Winters family, even when Rowell was still around, is that they didn't pack the emotional whallop they once had. And I admit, alot of must have been the writing, for me.... this is the BEST of what the Winters had to offer, this scene just ripped my heart out, and if I consider someone like Kahlil being dropped into a scene like this... it would SO not work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RckGDGmCcD8

Edited October 11, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

MarkH, NorrthCafe answered beautifully, I couldn't have put it better. As said, the "good" sibling/"bad" sibling thing is a storytelling staple, but within the black community for example, there is room to go even further... delving into our dirty little cultural secrets like keeping light-skinned children out of the sun and allowing the dark-skinned ones to go out and play (now who here had the better childhood??). "Good" hair/"bad" hair, all of that stuff we're ashamed of because consciously or subconsciously we know that it's born out of a white ideal of beauty.

At any rate, I'm not coming down on light-skinned or biracial actresses, I just think it's messed up that when casting black characters on soaps, more often than not that's what we get. Does no one see how insulting and pschologically/emotionally damaging that may be to a brown-, or dark-skinned young girl watching? Casting Tika Sumpter was a revelation. Christel Khalil, Karla Mosley, Brook Kerr, Daphne Duplaix, Victoria Platt, et cetera, do you see the through line in terms of looks and speech?

I'd love to see Mamie back, as long as she was actually DOING something, not just TLW status. Remember her walking around town with a shopping bag full of a million dollars? Oh, that Jill... But I liked VR's Mamie, she was time enough for Jill. She could shoot a look and you knew she meant business.

Edited October 11, 200916 yr by SFK

At any rate, I'm not coming down on light-skinned or biracial actresses, I just think it's messed up that when casting black characters on soaps, more often than not that's what we get. Does no one see how insulting and pschologically/emotionally damaging that may be to a brown-, or dark-skinned young girl watching? Casting Tika Sumpter was a revelation. Christel Khalil, Karla Mosley, Brook Kerr, Daphne Duplaix, Victoria Platt, et cetera, do you see the through line in terms of looks and speech?

The thing is, at least on Y&R it didn't used to be like that. You had 7 black actors on this show in the 80's... and 6 of them were contract players... and NONE of them mixed.

mods delete please

Edited October 11, 200916 yr by Zendall Fan

The thing is, at least on Y&R it didn't used to be like that. You had 7 black actors on this show in the 80's... and 6 of them were contract players... and NONE of them mixed.

Right, which is funny because it seems as though soaps have regressed instead of progressed in terms of their mindset re: images of blacks. I don't get where it all started, where suddenly the black girls had to look and sound as much as like the white girls as possible. A black girl having a lilt in her voice doesn't make her ghetto any more than a person from the south having an accent makes them a hick. It's funny how black people with traces of their southern and urban roots in their voices are okay for comedy but not soap operas. VR was pretty much the only one on that show with a "blackcent" which is funny because you could hear in her voice that it didn't come as naturally to her as it would to say Tichina Arnold or Vivica Fox. It's like TPTB are afraid of looking like they're stereotyping, but it's not even about that. There's a difference between honest reflections of cultural background and stereotyping. And YET, EVERY [!@#$%^&*] latin parent on a soap opera has an accent! Have you noticed that?? The Santoses on AMC, Marko's parents on OLTL, Carlotta, what is that about?? I mean, there are latin people in this country who have been here for more than one generation!

I was talking to my friend, a brown-skinned latina actress a couple of years ago, and she was even talking about how on novellas you won't see the brown-skinned Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, what have you, and many of the light-skinned latinas have traded in their natural raven hair color for bleached blonde and other-worldly shades of red. I'm almost tired of talking about this, I really wish it was a non-issue!

back atcha

Seriously, how do I even begin to reply to such a ridiculous statement. Oh yeah, I know.

And I can't believe you're still posting! Seriously, why come into this thread and make such ridiculous ignorant statements?

WOW! You really are a bitter, angry little person, aren't you?

And while we're on the topic of "ridiculous" comments...

Can I give you head tonight while you recite this post to me out loud?

AMAZING.

The thing is, this "not black enough" crap has been going on for DECADES. And many times, targeting people (Mostly women) who aren't even of mixed race..... people who are 100% black. 40 years ago, THIS was considered a "sell out" and "Not black enough" by many in the black community:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAVPpAVqkKk&feature=related

Now how ridiculous is that? Black women rack up 12 number one hits and people STILL can't give them their due. I think it's tacky as hell for people to turn on their own.... and it's still happeneing today, all because that girl is not "pure" enough. Well Obama ain't pure either, but because his skin is two shades darker than Christel's people willing to overlook that. After all, it's APPEARANCE that counts. And Because Rowell does neck rolls, then she gets a pass, too. But if you take it TOO far, like Tyler Perry's Madea, then your'e called a "Minstrel show". I'm not fan of Christel, but I don't like her cause she can't act her way out of a paper bag, not because of her lack of black purity. That's the kind of sh!t the Aryan nation comes up with, except in the opposite direction.

Thankyou for saying something that somewhat makes sense - a rarity in this thread.

Thankyou for saying something that somewhat makes sense - a rarity in this thread.

Your'e welcome. I just have alot of insight to both worlds, being a white ozark farm boy whose best friend is black. So I've heard both sides of the argument, and he educates me as to the black experience and attitudes... but I also know his opinions arne't the ONLY opinions held. I suppose my opinions might be swayed by him, because he calls Christel "Little miss white chocolate", and thinks she's not "black enough" either. Some people have that hangup, some people don't. But things can change opinion. Like when Davetta was playing the role, all that problem with Lily went away... and like my example of the Supremes earlier in the thread, once Diana Ross left the group, and they got Jean Terrell in there, The Supremes were once again "Black enough" and got their street cred back:

Edited October 11, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

WOW! You really are a bitter, angry little person, aren't you?

GREAT! You're back.

I thought Tammin's last airdate has already passed. Shouldn't you be watching some "Home and Away?"

GREAT! You're back.

Well what reaction was I supposed to have to that comment?

I thought Tammin's last airdate has already passed.

Your point?

Shouldn't you be watching some "Home and Away?"

Sorry but I wouldn't touch that show with a ten-foot pole in its current state.

and thinks she's not "black enough" either. Some people have that hangup

And that's all it is a personal hangup that resonates with certain people. You need to expand your black horizon if your relying on your friend and this board for the truth about the black experience.

We know that there is more than one "type" of black girl

Lol, I couldn't tell from this thread. Therefore you also know that there are blacks who easily identify with Lily as opposed to Dru and Tyra.

I think it's perfectly valid for black viewers of the #1 black soap to express a desire for greater representation

This I can agree with. Too bad they can't do that in a straight forward manner instead of opting for the Lily's not black enough method.

WOW! You really are a bitter, angry little person, aren't you?

Sweetie, don't bite off more than you can chew.

And while we're on the topic of "ridiculous" comments...

AMAZING.

I see your sense of humor is right on par with your taste in actors & your contributions to conversation on this board.

Thankyou for saying something that somewhat makes sense - a rarity in this thread.

And thank you for serving your one and only purpose on this board: to purposely give antagonistic opinions, however ignorant they may be, in order to incite people to disect your posts and point out the sheer idiocy of each and every thing you say.

That would be your cue to whine about being attacked unjustly, all the while relishing every ounce of what is being dished out to you.

Edited October 12, 200916 yr by juniorz1

Well what reaction was I supposed to have to that comment?

How about no reaction?! That would be lovely.

Your point?

Well, since the day you arrived to SON, your agenda has been to pimp all things bad about Y&R, Tammin being #1. Since Tammin's gone, why are you still here?

Sweetie, don't bite off more than you can chew.

I see your sense of humor is right on par with your taste in actors & your contributions to conversation on this board.

And thank you for serving your one and only purpose on this board: to purposely give antagonistic opinions, however ignorant they may be, in order to incite people to disect your posts and point out the sheer idiocy of each and every thing you say.

That would be your cue to whine about being attacked unjustly, all the while relishing every ounce of what is being dished out to you.

being a white ozark farm boy whose best friend is black.

...Seriously?