Y&R: Kahlil drops a bomb on buzzworthy radio

[DeeeDee]

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[NorrthCafe]

If you're talking about my posts, I did not rake Lily over the coals for integrating. I raked her (well, the writers) over the coals for SEGREGATING her from the rest of the 'black' cast, including her own family. The writers aren't writing 'color blind' storylines. It would be a crock to say that because it's only Lily who is heavily'integrated', but in a way that keeps her segregated from other minority characters - including dating and marrying. For many African-American viewers, Lily is living an inauthentic life.

I asked for an example of a non-minority character who is segregated from other non-minority characters (including their own families) and who spends the majority of their time with ONLY minority characters. Not one example was given. That's because it doesn't happen. It never has in daytime.

KSJ probably whizzes away more talent after a stiff drink than CK will ever have - pardon the coarse example. Victoria Rowell could sleepwalk and do a better job as Lily. Neither of them are around to do a darned thing because the writers seem to think they have their 'diversity doll' with Lily and that the diversity the Winters family once provided is no longer needed.

The Winters as a family was authentic because they represented a spectrum - bless Bill Bell:

Neil, straight-laced high achieving all around good guy.

Dru, reformed from her bad girl days, criminal record, rejected child acting out.

Olivia, another high achieving privileged first born.

Malcolm, wild child, playboy.

Mamie, loving and devoted aunt, not a lot of money or education, but she's gives all the right things. She takes in the unwanted, unloved Dru and helps her turn her life around.

Nate, good guy who had a rough start in life but turned everything around

And now Devon round out the family

Nate has died, Malcolm is off in the world, I have no idea where Mamie is (forgot).

Everyone else? Traded in for LILY.

What a slap!

[alphanguy74]

Northcafe.. I wasnt talking about you when I referred to people raking her over the coles. But one thing ALWAYS bothered me about Neil. I always HATED how he had his lips on Victor Newman's ass for 15 years. I'm surprised more fans weren't upset with that. I HATED how he used to be "ashamed" of Dru.... as if she'd pop his bougie little bubble. But I agree about Kahlil's lack of talent, you'll get no argument there. Hell... seeing how she performed, I'd have loved to have had Tatyiana Ali play the part. But for some reason, wer'e stuck with Christel.

[NorrthCafe]

I always thought Neil was looking to Victor as his 'father figure' but didn't realize until too late that it's hell being a Newman kid, surrogate or otherwise. I think Neil was some times weak and afraid and he was more fearful of the 'mess' Dru would make and not know how to handle it. She kept him going more often than doing anything to hurt him, professionally that is, LOL!

I'd love Neil to become a powerful man in his own rights, without Victor, and be the king of his own "fiefdom". I wish Kemo would return (can't remember what happened to him) and fool around with Phyllis. Rafe should have a real love interest (maybe Adam really falls in love with him only to lose him when Rafe finds out he's a psycho and moves on happily with someone else). Bill Bell started something huge... the current writing team dumped on that vision.

[juniorz1]

I feel like there are two separate threads going on here- what's being written on these pages and your off-the-wall misinterpretations of the collective opinion being stated by the majority of us in this thread.

NOBODY IS FIGHTING AMONGST THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People are sharing their thoughts and feelings in an honest & blunt fashion in hopes of bettering the representation of blacks in daytime Why must you insist on mis-representing everything that is being said on page after page?

I don't think we can make it any clearer for you, but damnit we're sure as hell trying. Because ENLIGHTENMENT is the only weapon against racism & ignorance.

And THAT, y&r_fan, is why this thread is still going strong.

[DeeeDee]

Yep.

[SFK]

No no no no no! Please excuse my poor phrasing, that's what I get for posting post-vodka, but I was not at all implying that black singers need to stay in a Gosepl/R&B box, and forgive me if I misspoke about The Supremes' musical background, but it is a fact (I've seen it with my own two eyes on a program about a budding young artist on BET) that record producers (black and white alike) have instructed black singers to "take the Gospel out" of their voices. Mariah Carey for instance was heavily influenced by Gospel phenom Karen Clark Sheard, and although Mariah's voice has plenty of soul and she may even be backed by a choir, her vocals, even her riffs and runs, are streamlined and will not give you that gut punch you'll get in a Baptst church or Church of God in Christ. These artists are singing pop yet they totally want to infuse Gospel with none of the grit that makes it too churchy. All I'm saying is, if you by nature have some Mahalia in your voice, that's you, and your inner Mahalia needn't be suppressed to appease ANYone. Nobody is telling Justin Timberlake, Robin Thicke, Taylor Hicks, Amy Winehouse, Estelle, et cetera to take the "black" (of which they are not) out of their voices, but God forbid a black pop star gets a little *too* church. I digress, but it's weird...

I know it's fiction, but it borrowed heavily from fact (though they deny it)... in Dreamgirls this is why Deena with her soft cooing Diana Ross voice is pushed to the lead. And a point Sheryl Lee Ralph made re: Beyonce being cast as Deena in the film was that when they were workshopping the musical back in the early '80s the director Michael Bennett wanted to make it clear that these three girls were BLACK girls, brown to dark-skinned, he wanted to eschew any implication that light skin is what opened the door and paved the way to their success.

The point about pleasing not only white but black audiences too is one I made in my original post. Black people LOVED The Supremes, all of those girl groups, what wasn't to love about these gorgeous, glamorous black women, it was like nothing they'd ever seen before. I didn't mean to imply that The Supremes deserved "hate" for being "whitewashed", I just meant that if black audiences could sense that there was some effort being made to appeal to the white audience too, well that was perfectly valid. Back then they were less critical because seeing a colored person on the T.V. was an event. When Whitney came on the scene looking like a black Barbie doll with five pounds of blonde hair sewn into her head bopping around in a party dress singing bubblegum, yes, there was a backlash because many blacks looked at Whitney and saw someone not born but created. Of course there was her cousin Dionne Warwick with her easy listening sound, but up until that point, the majority of famous black female singers sung R&B, soul, jazz/blues, Gospel. It took a second for some people to jump on the Whitney train.

[SFK]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again because I think it bears repeating... this whole CKLily situation wouldn't be half as bad, maybe it wouldn't even be an issue at all, if there was at least ONE other young black woman in the vein of a Tichina Arnold or a Regina King on the show, and on contract. It's too bad that Lily doesn't have any sisters and Davetta couldn't have played a fraternal twin or something. Black people are smart. We know that there is more than one "type" of black girl, we know that the CKLilys of the world exist, and NO, they are not as a rule scorned upon. But no matter what anyone on here or anywhere else says, the CKLilys do not reflect the majority and I think it's perfectly valid for black viewers of the #1 black soap to express a desire for greater representation. I'm sick and tired of these shows acting like there's only room for one black girl and guy.

And to think that there was a 50/50 chance of it being "That's So Christel". Now what in the world would that have been like? Can you imagine her in that family as it's cast?

[miajere]

I agree.

[MarkH]

I don't want to wade in here, but I do find some of the explanations in here truly amazing and clarifying.

So, let me ask directly...do you think the audience tolerated Olivia, in part, because Dru was there to balance her out?

[NorrthCafe]

Speaking for myself, only, MarkH, Dru wasn't the 'default standard'. I loved the way the two sisters complemented one another. I wouldn't have wanted EITHER woman, alone. Liv, the accomplished doctor, who was still a little too 'sorority girl' (along with Ashley - they were so sappy sweet together, I developed cavities when they were on screen together). Then there was Dru, the street kid

Minorities/underrepresented groups so rarely get to have the balanced portrayals that non-minority groups do that we're caught struggling with our feelings about the few characters who are supposed to represent us. Drucilla alone feels like a cruel joke - daytime writers once again indulging their fantasies about who black women are. Olivia alone feels like a repudiation (much like Lily). Bill Bell was master enough to appreciate that and I think he really understood that in way that the current YnR writers are ignorant of, or seem to be.

Dru was never 'good enough' for her mother who never wanted to have another child after the perfect LIV and didn't so much as notice that her daughter couldn't read. Liv was the heir, Dru was the spare. It's such a classic 'family' story (not just "African-American" story) and it was wonderful to see these two sisters play off of one another, genuinely loving one another but being divided by the strife their mother created.

OLTL writers got it and provided balance with the 'good sib' and the 'troubled sib'. It's how they wrote: Nate and RJ Gannon, and Cristian and Antonio (as well as Vicki and Todd, and Natalie and Jessica).

[MarkH]

Another great summary.

I think Tyra was intended as the "balance", but it got all messed up as she was revealed to be deceptive, and she slept her way through every relation and generation. Also, back in the day, Rowell was a better actress than TLW...but again we had one to balance out the other.

Khalil was not balanced by Pigford, and so that also messed it up.

I don't want to lose the Winters, and I'm also not interested in isolating a "black" story. I think both KSJ and Bryton are very capable. But, for many reasons, I'd very very much like to see another African American family, with more verisimilitude, brought in to balance out the surviving Winters.

It doesn't have to be a poor/working class family either...since we're talking stereotypes. It can be a family that is socioeconomically matched to the Winters (and the rest of Genoa City), but that maybe comes from stronger roots in the Black church or in a more afrocentric community...and that still reflects those roots.

The canvas is overstuffed, so for this to happen, we'd have to lose--at a minimum--the Fishwins. I do think, though, since Y&R currently lacks the "relatability" factor, and the Fishwins will never be relatable, it is okay if they are set adrift.

In my version of the universe:

- Let's Make a Deal hemmorhages viewers, and actually LOSES CBS money

- Desperate, they decide to expand B&B to an hour...because that is dependable bank

- Brad Bell brings the Fishwins (specifically Michael, Lauren, and Gloria) to run a third, campy fashion house. My preference would be for CLB to play the flamboyant gay designer...but since that won't work...Gloria can get herself a gay designer that she is fabulous with.

Ratings spike, and youth viewership explodes.

On a different note, I was hoping that Estella/Rafe would be tied to Raul/Diego (since both Raul and Rafe, as near as I can construct, were scholarship students at Walnut Grove during the early 2000s), and we'd see a bona fide hispanic/latino family on this show. Since that is clearly not in the cards, this is another arc they can drop. But ONLY after Victor makes some amends!

[miajere]

I was an Olivia fan to the very end and it was Dru's protective instincts over Olivia that identified her as an ally. Would I have liked Olivia absent Dru- probably not! Would I have accepted Dru without Mamie? Never. But that balance was in the writing and the portrayals, and this portion of the cast made great use of that.

Introducing a new family has to be done carefully. It has to generate through fan reaction- "more of (new character)". You're talking about catching lightning in a bottle for a second time on a show that prides itself on mining history. Look at how long it took for people to take to the Baldwins. Then there's going to be the ultimate problem: you have to have writers who do their research and are capable of listening to the actors portraying the character. Then those same writers have to segment that audience to those watching the soaps. You say gospel, and MAB gives us Anna. What I perceive to be the problem is there are too many writers out there who think five minutes with their "black friends" constitutes as research into the prevailing conditions we want to see reflected on television. They have no idea what POC talk about when they're not around. They think they're seeing the forest and not just the trees.

It doesn't have to be stereotypical, or "popular", but it needs to come from some honest insight- honest and stereotypical is not the same thing. Then they need to be prepared to hear, "That's not right. That would never happen. This character would never react in this way." The biggest treasure they have yet to make real use of is Neil constantly playing second fiddle to the Newman kids. Instead, they gave the ex-alcoholic a club. I imagine the only reason no one speaks up is because the daytime medium is extremely difficult and no one wants to be that pain in the ass who slows the working day down.

[alphanguy74]

You make a VERY good point here. I loved the rivalry and complicated relationship between Dru and Olivia, and certain aspects of it reminded me of the Leslie/Lorie rivalry (Primarily the conflict of the "bad" sister feeling overlooked and rejected by the parents, and having resentement toward the "good" sister, but still deep down wanting to love the "good" sister anyway.) I TOTALLY agree that Dur without Mamie would not have worked, primarily because when she first came on, Dru was incredibly HARSH, and BRITTLE. And Mamie softened her.... eased the viewer into seeing Dru as soemthing more than a smart-mouthed pain in the ass.

[miajere]

Can we go back to Mamie? This portion of the cast could use a strong vet like Veronica Redd's Mamie to make better sense of the family lineage, and unfortunately soaps sold themselves short by not taking care of their POC over the years or their vets. Would CK have to rise to the occasion in the face of such an actress like VR's Mamie? She would have no choice. (not to mention I hear Redd was an acting teacher in Los Angeles) You can't introduce a new family and get that kind of history or bond, which is why people watch the soaps to begin with. Perhaps the answer was never "bring back Dru", perhaps we should've asked for Mamie- the now wealthy. traveled, graceful woman with a long history in Genoa City (she practically raised Jack and Ashley!). But I got the distinct feeling she was not too big about returning to the show, perhaps due to material or behind the scenes experience..