4 minutes ago, Dan said:

1) I could never get past the rape. Jon concealed his identity and effectively raped Tammy and then we were all just supposed to forget about it. And let's not forget the cousin angle. 

I am one who is ferocious in denying couples where it began with a rape & I do not remember any rape when it comes to Jami. When & where is this supposed to have happened? And why do you consider it a rape? Jonathan never forced Tammy. If all you are speaking of is the fact that he concealed his true identity initially because of the understandable issues with Reva giving him up as a baby, how do you figure that makes it rape? 

I really do have to block out that Beth was in college when Bill was born. I generally dislike Beth Chamberlain's portrayal during the entirety of her second run anyway. 

While I agree Cosgrove is a tad too old, and would have LOVED to see Buffinton grow in the role, that die was cast the moment Budig was cast as Michelle years earlier. I thought Cosgrove fit as Billy and Vanessa's son and could act. Unlike Ryan Brown or any of Reva's children.

GAWD....the awful woodenness of St. Alban. SMH.

9 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I was wondering yesterday if she was one, too. 

It's even sad to me that she only ever got two nominations. And only as supporting for ATWT.

19 minutes ago, P.J. said:

It's even sad to me that she only ever got two nominations. And only as supporting for ATWT.

Just what a damn shame! Lisa Brown, so talented, gifted, nuanced, could play anything & did play everything. God bless Betty Rea for hiring her even though she was totally wrong for Morgan & she had no other job for Brown to do, because then when Douglas Marland found her in place & ready to go, he immediately declared her his muse & created both Nola & Iva. Lisa Brown, you died too young & we miss you. 

After Bethany Joie Lenz and Rebecca Budig --  Nancy St. Alban's Michelle was soooooooooooooo dull. She was the equivalent to DAYS Martha Madison as "Grandma"Belle.

 

So glad I'm not alone in my Otalia opinions. Chappell's need to keep that fanbase after TGL was cancelled --- THIRSTY and NEEDY. I liked Chappell in the first Carly run on DAYS and as quirky Maggie on OLTL. I could even take her in doses as Olivia -- but after a while, the character ran its course, and being around screaming Buzz and family O_O.

 

There is nothing ickier than first cousins getting it on. Having just needed a shower after watching "Victoria" about Queen Victoria and her husband Albert -- remembering people clamoring for Tammy and Jonathan ruins my appetite. Without consent... is there really any question whether Tammy was raped?

Daniel Cosgrove (or Show-killer as many call him) -- where does one start? I guess I'm in the minority, but I always enjoy him.   Was he too old to replace Bryan Buffington? Probably. I wish Buffington and Miner stayed in the roles. Should Cosgrove have been cast as a different character? Maybe. Bill and Beth --  Ewww.  He didn't think she was the woman he grew up knowing? He ended up with her daughter that ratted her out to Phillip after catching Mommy in bed with Bill...    Oh that "Wheeler Magic" ...  After Ryan Brown @P.J.  ,tho... Cosgrove is Al Pacino or DeNiro in the role...🤩

 

Not to mention he's easy on the eyes...

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I didn't really care about their pairing, but I didn't object to Bill and Beth, probably because I never saw Cosgrove as the Bill I cared about anyway. That's also why the attempt at pairing up Bill and dullard Nancy St. Alban did not mean anything to me - that wasn't the Bill or Michelle anyone needed to see together.

It started as Bill and Lorlei, and I thought anything to do with Lorlei was a mistake. When Lorlei's diary came out, I remember Chamberlain suggesting that Lorlei might have had a child out there somewhere and I didn't need to watch any of that play out. 

I didn't mind Nancy St. Alban, but she wasn't the most energized Michelle. 

2 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I was fine with Cosgrove during his 1st run, and I remember SOD named him as Best Recast (while that putrid Marah actress was named as Worst Recast lol). That said the biggest issue I believe Cosgrove and St. Alban (subpar acting aside until her final year) had was they were both wayyy too old to be playing Bill and Michelle by at almost a decade and they looked it too. Yikes. What was the casting director thinking at the time. 

I liked Cosgrove. I thought he and Crystal Chappell played well off each other, but I don't remember the characters having much interesting story other than the initial pairing. 

I remember watching a scene in 2002 during the wedding festivities with Daniel Cosgrove, Nancy St. Alban, and Matt Bomer in a scene together as childhood friends and thinking this was odd. Though, I remember thinking Ben was being played too young as he had been involved in the Marah teen set when they went to college when he probably should have been a generation above. 

2 hours ago, Dan said:

So speaking for just myself, there are a couple of reasons.

1) I could never get past the rape. Jon concealed his identity and effectively raped Tammy and then we were all just supposed to forget about it. And let's not forget the cousin angle. 

2) Honestly the acting and the almost zealous over praising of the coupling (that ignored point #1) . Between SG being kind of just there and TP chewing every piece of scenary he could, I could not get over it. 

And BTW yes Otalia was generally awful. I'm kind of glad Olivia/Holly never happened. I'm pretty certain the sexual tension and chemistry would have melted all of our TV sets. 

I loved the seduction story. It was dark and messed up, and it worked at deconstructing Tammy as a character. I also didn't see them as endgame and became very frustrated when it became clear that Kreizman was going that route. Jonathan never tried to make things better with Tammy. It was just Tammy whitewashing what happened until Jonathan did something else. By the time they decided Jonathan needed to embarrass Tammy on her wedding day to Sandy by having him arrested for bigamy, I pretty much knew that Kriezman was going to die on the hill of Tammy and Jonathan (even though I should have realized this many months earlier)  

I was more upset that Tammy was suppose to ignore everything that had happened without doing any of the work to make things better. Jonathan hurt Tammy over and over and that wasn't a fun situation to watch. 

I also didn't care much for Otalia. I thought Natalia was such a bland character (as so many new additions under Wheeler and Kriezman were) and pairing her with Olivia, who had, at one point, had so much life, was deflating. I also didn't like that Olivia had Gus' heart because I felt that had the audience went south, they would have killed Otalia with Olivia realizing her feelings were complicated because of Gus' feelings for Natalia. 

19 minutes ago, slick jones said:

So glad I'm not alone in my Otalia opinions. Chappell's need to keep that fanbase after TGL was cancelled --- THIRSTY and NEEDY. I liked Chappell in the first Carly run on DAYS and as quirky Maggie on OLTL. I could even take her in doses as Olivia -- but after a while, the character ran its course, and being around screaming Buzz and family O_O.

Putting Olivia in a triangle with Frank and Buzz was a nadir that I thought couldn't be surpassed until Olivia and Natalia and Frank. 

I am a Chappell apologist, but even I couldn't deal with the Venice stuff. I appreciate that Chappell put out a product that was geared to a section of the audience that felt neglected and provided opportunities for soap veterans. That product wasn't for me. 

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

It started as Bill and Lorlei, and I thought anything to do with Lorlei was a mistake. When Lorlei's diary came out, I remember Chamberlain suggesting that Lorlei might have had a child out there somewhere and I didn't need to watch any of that play out. 

I didn't mind Nancy St. Alban, but she wasn't the most energized Michelle. 

I liked Cosgrove. I thought he and Crystal Chappell played well off each other, but I don't remember the characters having much interesting story other than the initial pairing. 

Bill & Olivia was one of my favorite pairings. One of the things I liked most was that they talked so much alone in bed so we got to see great eye candy from both!!! The image Soapsuds displays is one of those nights on Bill & Olivia's bed! I really truly love both Cosgrove & Chappell. So, what did I have to lose?! 

Never cared for Lorelei. Had no problem with NSA. However, I never stopped wishing for Bryan Buffington & Rachel Miner, so there!

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

I remember watching a scene in 2002 during the wedding festivities with Daniel Cosgrove, Nancy St. Alban, and Matt Bomer in a scene together as childhood friends and thinking this was odd. Though, I remember thinking Ben was being played too young as he had been involved in the Marah teen set when they went to college when he probably should have been a generation above. 

I loved the seduction story. It was dark and messed up, and it worked at deconstructing Tammy as a character. I also didn't see them as endgame and became very frustrated when it became clear that Kreizman was going that route. Jonathan never tried to make things better with Tammy. It was just Tammy whitewashing what happened until Jonathan did something else. By the time they decided Jonathan needed to embarrass Tammy on her wedding day to Sandy by having him arrested for bigamy, I pretty much knew that Kriezman was going to die on the hill of Tammy and Jonathan (even though I should have realized this many months earlier)  

I also loved the Jami seduction, but I kept right on loving them until the time that GL should have won the Emmy for Tammy's death & funeral! 

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

I am a Chappell apologist, but even I couldn't deal with the Venice stuff. I appreciate that Chappell put out a product that was geared to a section of the audience that felt neglected and provided opportunities for soap veterans. That product wasn't for me. 

I do not feel that Crystal requires any apology but if one is needed I will gladly sign up. And, I have all of the seasons of Venice on DVD & have watched & re-watched them over & over. But then I AM the target audience, so it is altogether fitting. As a matter of fact, when Venice launched I was one of the many fools who broke the Venice server with so many people trying to see Episode 1 all at the same time & then we proceeded to break the music distributor's server all trying to download Jen Foster's theme song, "Venice". Wow, good times breaking the Internet!!! 

@ContessaDonatella  although I just realized that they didn't even award Supporting performances until a couple of years into the emmys, which just seems whack to me. It is hard to argue with 1981's supporting actress winner though---Jane Eliot.

Otalia--sigh. I always found Olivia too shrill to care about. Not only was Natalia a dull dull DULL character, the only real opinion I would have on the relationship is that it was edgier than Luke/Noah, which isn't much of a standard.

I love Daniel Cosgrove---but honestly more for Bill's family relationships than his romances. After the suckitude of Ryan Brown, Cosgrove seemed to channel early Jordan Clarke easily. And yeah---easy on the eyes.

2 minutes ago, P.J. said:

@ContessaDonatella  although I just realized that they didn't even award Supporting performances until a couple of years into the emmys, which just seems whack to me. It is hard to argue with 1981's supporting actress winner though---Jane Eliot.

Ah! I see. Just so. And, I love that win even more because of how it came about. For some unknown reason Gloria Monty refused to put Jane up. Well, this didn't sit well with one of the secretaries, so she called Jane & told her to come to the office where she explained to her how to go about nominating herself. (This comes from a Michael Logan interview of Geary, Shriner & Eliot in Apr. 2013.) It is even odder because many many years after this win Elliot would not allow herself to be submitted. 

 

Well, I don't think it's so mysterious--Monty was probably po'd Jane had jumped to GL.

It's so weird, '84 is the year GL knocked GH out of #1, and all I can think as I watch is how it's falling apart. It starts off strong, with Vanessa and Billy's wedding/Alex's return, and dissolves under the weight of both the Dreaming Death and the Susan Piper/Barbados stories. 

6 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Well, I don't think it's so mysterious--Monty was probably po'd Jane had jumped to GL.

 

So Jane had been at GH & done the famous scene she won for, left & went to GL, came back & nominated herself, is that how the timeline went? 

31 minutes ago, P.J. said:

'84 is the year GL knocked GH out of #1

That did not happen. It was proven in the 1980s ratings thread. GL won the time slot over General Hospital May 28-June 1, 1984; June 4-8, 1984; June 11-15, 1984. Y&R was #1 those three weeks.

Jill Lorie Hurst was the WORST headwiter in GL history! The show was cancelled under her watch and that crying baby Ellen Wheeler. Peapack! A god- awful duo who got GL cancelled! Thank you daytime for never hiring Jill Lorie Hurst and the god awful cry baby Ellen Wheeler again!!! Thank God daytime is rid of those cancers.  

Edited May 13, 20241 yr by TEdgeofNight

@slick jones LOL at your response earlier has me still in tears about Cosgrove and Ryan Brown. 🤣

 

Ryan Brown’s Bill and Pilar Santos story I had blocked to the far depths of my GL memories. 
 

I do wonder who hired Ryan Brown as Billy on Y&R. Major yikes!  A Lucy Johnson mandate? 

6 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

@slick jones LOL at your response earlier has me still in tears about Cosgrove and Ryan Brown. 🤣

 

Ryan Brown’s Bill and Pilar Santos story I had blocked to the far depths of my GL memories. 
 

I do wonder who hired Ryan Brown as Billy on Y&R. Major yikes!  A Lucy Johnson mandate? 

I'm trying not to think about this! Now you've said Pilar's name. It's getting worse!

Also today the existence of Susan Batten has been invoked. This is a very trying day here in GL threadland!

Edited May 13, 20241 yr by Contessa Donatella

7 hours ago, dc11786 said:

I remember watching a scene in 2002 during the wedding festivities with Daniel Cosgrove, Nancy St. Alban, and Matt Bomer in a scene together as childhood friends and thinking this was odd. Though, I remember thinking Ben was being played too young as he had been involved in the Marah teen set when they went to college when he probably should have been a generation above. 

I loved the seduction story. It was dark and messed up, and it worked at deconstructing Tammy as a character. 

 

Matt Bomer was the perfect age for Ben Reade tbh, and I recall there was definitely tension about him hanging out with the younger ladies like Marah and especially Marina even prior to him going psycho. Marah’s whole college story was the most unrealistic college story I have ever seen written on any medium to begin with anyways.

I’m always glad Bomer had the last laugh in all that mess. 
 

I agree with you I liked the initial shock story of Johnathan and Tammy…I liked Johnathan better when he had another bad girl per se as his heavy like Dinah and Lizzie. I always kept waiting for the other shoe to drop on Johnathan and Tammy ie they weren’t related after all but it never happened, which was bad because even Passions gave a convoluted retcon to make Chad & Whitney not related after all LOL 🤣