In the grand scheme of things, Patty is not that important a character. She doesn't need to be redeemed. She can go the way of Isabella & sent off to the off-screen Funny Farm.

What is tragic is that TIIC did to Victor Newman, Jr. It goes beyond destroying a single character, which is bad enough, but it destroyed tons of potential story for the Newmans and the show as a whole. How can TIIC not understand that of all your younger characters, the three you have to preserve for long-term stories are Adam, Billy & Lily? Adam is now utterly unwatchable and horribly miscasted. While Billy is a bit of a mess right now, he's still okay, thank goodness, though the show certainly isn't using him to his potential. And I am disgusted TIIC took Lily's ovaries out of her. Five years from now there should have been a Who's the Daddy Story with Billy/Lily/Adam or Adam stealing a cosmetic formula from Jabot or Billy sabatoging a Newman campaign. Lily should still be young and free and playing men against each other. No true Y&R fans gives a [!@#$%^&*] about the Scoobs and their Chipmunk. We love the Chancellors and the Abbotts and the Newmans. We love the corporate intrigue and the family rivalries. If this was a Shakespearean play (TM Beth Ehlers), Billy, Adam and Lily would be the royal figures and central characters of the younger set. Kevin, Daniel and the Scoobs would be strict comic relief - like Bottom in MSND or Toby in 12th Nite. Bill Bell instinctively understood this. There was a reason he gave Jill & Kay (two bitter queens) and Jack & Victor so much heavy drama. Why is Billy being wasted on a High School Musical Love triangle? Why is Lily married off like a 50s housewife? Why why why was Adam turned into a character that burns a fetus in a fireplace? WTF? The stupidiy of TIIC is staggering.

I agree with much of what you said, but I don't agree that no true fan only cares about the Chancellors, Newmans and Abbotts. Should they get heavy play? Yes, but that doesn't mean any character connected to one of the core families all of a sudden should take priority over long term vets who Bill Bell created and wrote for also. Bill Bell wrote for his core families, but he also valued other characters that were not part of these families.

Frankly, I never liked Adam. Do I think he is being wasted and could have been written better? Yes, but I don't find it devastating that Adam may be written out. In fact, I hope he is. As for Lily, why is she so important according to your standards? She is not a Newman, Abbott or Chancellor. And as long as she is played by a mere average actress, I will not be automatically connected to her or her story because she is Neil and Dru's daughter. Just like Colleen. I don't want her to be killed off, but I don't vlaue her more than I do Lauren because she is an Abbott. As for Billy, the show survived without him just fine. I think it was important to bring him back, but I am sick of seeing him shoved into so many stories. This character just returned last September and now he is the star of the show, even overshadowing Jack.

That is my biggest problem with these writers. Except for a few protected characters, the beloved vets are being moved out by younger characters. Billy is now the center of his family rather than Jack, Jill will surely be overshadowed by her sons and grandson, Victor is being made to look like a fool and outwitted by his pyschotic son, Nikki became wall paper up until last week, while Nick was on five days a week. Neil is around to prop Lily or her story. Kevin and Jana have all but replaced Michael and Lauren as the center of their family. People keep claiming that soaps only have a few years, so why alienate even more of your loyal audience by replacing their favorites. Yes, a show should be multigenerational, but too much focus is on younger, less interesting characters and actors. Why did so many like last Friday's episode? It wan't because Sharon stole something else again. It was because we were invested in the Paul, Nikki and Victor scenes. Even with little buildup prior we were invested again because we know these characters and we cared what was happening to them.

Alvin, I was on several board back then, and in 2003/2004, Jack Smith was REVILED. His pimping of Sharon, his destruction of her as the "Good girl" Brittany Hodges and that whole stripper crap. Having the teens on EVERY DAY for months. Him not using Kay and Jill at ALL. And need I mention Cassie's death? That was the last straw for most.

I was around then and he was called Hack a Jack Smith. There was a lot of backlash over Jack Smith. In fact, it was just like it is now for MAB. Maybe the problem can't always be laid at the writers every single time.

Just visit every soap board and you will see that most fans are unhappy with the writing. So am I really to believe that every writer of every soap is truly the worst? I have a very hard time believing that out of 7 or 8 soaps that there isn't some decent writing occurring from time to time.

I think they DO read boards, and use it as their little free focus group. IT's just that those of us who like Y&R slow are being outnumbered by those in the MTV generation who say theyr'e "bored" or the SL is being "dragged out" when it doens't start and end in less than two weeks. Some of you are acting this way, too. Just 8 months ago, everything was sunshine and lollipops... now you hate it, quit watching, and want everyone fired. I got more fortitude than that! I'm a big boy, and can ride out the bad spots.

Soap storytelling goes through phases. Sometimes things work well. Sometimes things are mediocre. And there are times that the phase results in piss poor storytelling. All of the writers have suffered from this. It's just over time, we remember Marland and Bell's great stories more than we remember their duds. And they did have duds.

Someone mentioned the OLTL story for Kish. Just 4 months ago, everyone was calling for Carlivati to be fired during the Rerape of Marty and the beginning of the Morasco Fiasco. Now he has onced again been placed on a pedestal as an example. I think the praise for both Carlivati and MAB is really also part of the problem. There is no way they can possibly operate at those high expectations for 5 days out of the week and 52 weeks out of the year.

Personally, I think there are still stories with great potential on Y&R. MAB has been in this position before when she first assumed HW duties last spring. She worked her way through it then and I think she could work her way through it again. And maybe she needs to shake up her staff and find a better creative partnership.

The Adam story, the Devon story, the Mary Jane story, the Deacon story are the only stories that I find repulsive. The other stories have potential.

What I'm not confident about is that even if MAB and Sheffer are fired, we have no control over who they hire. The replacement could be far worse and then what? Complain until we get the next batch of writers? It doesn't make much sense to me.

So we should just accept a badly written show?

Replacement writers is a risk many of us are willing to take, because the show is incredibly bad right now and the honeymoon period for this current writing regime ended months ago, and things don't appear to be improving. And I doubt they ever will, given many things I've observed about this writing regime from the start.

As others have said, they find the show to be in much wore shape now than its ever been, hence why many on this board are quitting it.

As I've always said, there's been several long-term problematic tendencies of this writing regime that I've seen since the beginning, and they've only gotten worse with time. Not to mention, how morbid this show has become, and who do we blame for that? I blame this writing regime, it's their style and many of the writers on this head writing team have reeked similar havoc on other shows.

Maria Arena Bell, Hogan Sheffer, and Scott Hamner do not understand this show. They haven't from day one and they tried to mask it with the Kay/Marge story, which became a mess by the end anyway. Sheffer and Hamner have destroyed other shows with their vision, and Maria lacks storytelling experience and motivation. You have three very different people with problematic reputations running this show, and running it into the ground.

They think they're writing some type of anti-soap with the fact pacing, skipping over of important beats, morbid stories, and the borderline incest. What the hell is this? Who told them to do two sexual assaults in two weeks? Who told them to kill a dog? Who told them to have a psycho intentionally put a young girl in a coma? Who told them to have a boy sleep with someone he thought was his aunt most of his life? Who told them to constantly dumb down women and make them victims to drive ever plot? Yes, these are the type of head writers we have on this show, and this was their big vision for the Summer.

Fans are always going to complain, but right now seems to be one of the high points of complaining on various boards, especially with this current writing regime.

I remember when the mags used to say Y&R had the least negative feedback of any soap on the air, I honestly don't think that's the case anymore. If anything, Y&R is probably near the top of negative feedback.

Edited August 12, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I think we are assuming that this show will be around in the next 5 years! If CBS is the one pushing this stuff and faster pace, I will just go ahead and assume they have a "strategy" they are working on!! I am not even going to utter anymore criticism about what's going on..it's becoming all too clear. Y&R has lost its BRAND!!

Y&R has lost its BRAND!!

Sad, but very true IMO.

Today's show was mostly a blur for me. The only interesting parts were Nina and Chance. The rest went in from one ear and came out the the other ear without meaning much...LOL.

And oh dear gawd...Love ya Thom...but you are stinking up the place. His scenes with Chance and Nina today were just laughable.

At this point I am finding ATWT more enjoyable than Y&R and that is saying something.

So we should just accept a badly written show?

No but we need to understand that there isn't always a simple solution. Firing the staff hasn't been working out very well. We've done that with Jack Smith, Lynn Latham and now we want to fire Bell. I find it amusing that now people want Lynn and Jack back and I have no idea why because I'm sure the complaining will continue.

And I doubt they ever will, given many things I've observed about this writing regime from the start.

I can't say that. I've seen some really good episodes on Y&R in the last year. Things are shitty today but I've watched this show for years. This isn't the first time the show hit a lull. So I'm confident that they will fix the problem. They always do.

As others have said, they find the show to be in much wore shape now than its ever been, hence why many on this board are quitting it.

That's fine but again this isn't unusual behavior. When fans are outraged, they complain. I'm sure the feedback is reaching the correct people and they will address it. The posters here at SON are more savvy than many of the other internet fans so we know that problems in this genre are not corrected overnight. And honestly, I don't remember many people complaining in here so overtly until about 2 months ago. We won't see an immediate response for another few months onscreen.

As I've always said, there's been several long-term problematic tendencies of this writing regime that I've seen since the beginning, and they've only gotten worse with time. Not to mention, how morbid this show has become, and who do we blame for that? I blame this writing regime, it's their style and many of the writers on this head writing team have reeked similar havoc on other shows.

I'm familiar with Sheffer's problematic issues. I still think his first few months at Y&R weren't that bad. However, what is the solution? Do we want to have Smith and Alden return? I remember the complaints about both at the end of their reigns and it wasn't very positive at all.

Besides, I've seen too many posts that complain about how the major problem with daytime is that we recyle the problematic writers so I'm unclear as to how we now believe that recycling another batch of writers into the HW will solve the problem. And the big question that I have is what will you do if the next regime is worse than this current one? Judging from the reputation of most soap operas, the odds of this tactic working are not favorable in the least.

Maria Arena Bell, Hogan Sheffer, and Scott Hamner do not understand this show. They haven;t from day one and they tried to mask it with the Kay/Marge story, which became a mess by the end anyway. Sheffer and Hamner have destroyed other shows with their vision, and Maria lacks storytelling experience and motivation.

The conclusion to Kay and Marge was disappointing and certainly not what I expected. However, I'd be lying if I didn't also state how much I enjoyed many aspects of that story. The good outweighs the bad on that one for me. And there are plenty of story conclusions that do not meet my satisfaction.

They think they're writing some type of anti-soap with the fact pacing, skipping over of important beats, morbid stories, and the borderline incest. What the hell is this? Who told them to do two sexual assaults in two weeks? Who told them to kill a dog? Who told them to have a psycho intentionally put a young girl in a coma? Who told them to have a boy sleep with someone he thought was his aunt most of his life? Who told them to constantly dumb down women and make them victims to drive ever plot? Yes, these are the type of head writers we have on this show, and this was their big vision for the Summer.

Their vision for the summer failed and they should be taken to task for it but do we fire the writers for making mistakes like this without giving them a chance to fix it? And what will you do when the new regime fails as they are eventually bound to?

Fans are always going to complain, but right now seems to be one of the high points of complaining on various boards, especially with this current writing regime.I remember when the mags used to say Y&R had the least negative feedback of any soap on the air, I honestly don't think that's the case anymore. If anything, Y&R is probably near the top of negative feedback.

Really? Try AMC or GH. The complaints of soap fans from other shows is so consistent to me that I barely notice it anymore. I will say that Y&R fans have recently fallen into disenchantment while the other soap fans have become accustomed to it.

The point I am making is that overall there is a vicious cycle of firings that has been perpetuated by both the network and the fans and no one seems willing to take a step back and determine a more viable long-term solution. Daytime is dying and the fact of the matter is that soaps aren't as entertaining as they once were.

And now we are OT and I came to post about what I did like about the show today.

I really enjoyed Phillip, Nina and Chance. Its little moments like the lunch that gives me hope that with some creative and corrective action that this show can be fixed. I liked Billy and Chloe's divorce discussion.

Tyra and Devon was wrong on so many levels that I do not know where to begin.

That's fine but again this isn't unusual behavior. When fans are outraged, they complain. I'm sure the feedback is reaching the correct people and they will address it. The posters here at SON are more savvy than many of the other internet fans so we know that problems in this genre are not corrected overnight. And honestly, I don't remember many people complaining in here so overtly until about 2 months ago. We won't see an immediate response for another few months onscreen.

If we ever see an immediate response. How many times have we said "give it time, it will get better." Howevere, it never does, we've seen it with various other shows and writers. Judging by what I've seen with this regime, it's been one constant downward slope since the beginning.

I'm familiar with Sheffer's problematic issues. I still think his first few months at Y&R weren't that bad. However, what is the solution? Do we want to have Smith and Alden return? I remember the complaints about both at the end of their reigns and it wasn't very positive at all.

I personally wouldn't mind Smith and Alden's return. At least they generally knew how to pace stories and they understood the motivations on these characters.

Besides, I've seen too many posts that complain about how the major problem with daytime is that we recyle the problematic writers so I'm unclear as to how we now believe that recycling another batch of writers into the HW will solve the problem. And the big question that I have is what will you do if the next regime is worse than this current one? Judging from the reputation of most soap operas, the odds of this tactic working are not favorable in the least.

We never know until they try. If Y&R and soaps are ending in a few years anyway, I'd like to say at least they tried to fix this show by hiring better, more component people, rather than doing nothing about the problems on the show.

The next regime could be as bad as this one, but if daytime is dying anyway, what do we have to lose? I want to see more competent and strong people with clear visions in there. I do not believe having 3 Head Writers helps the cohesiveness of this show. Also, given that two of them are Fi-Core writers, it really hurts this show's reputation with the WGA and within the industry. The show deserves better than that. The fans deserve better than that.

Their vision for the summer failed and they should be taken to task for it but do we fire the writers for making mistakes like this without giving them a chance to fix it? And what will you do when the new regime fails as they are eventually bound to?

They've had since the beginning of this regime to fix their pacing problems, and they haven't. They've had since the beginning to think of some creative and good stories for their black character, and they haven't. They've had since the beginning to balance and rotate the usage of their cast, and they haven't. They've had since the beginning to stop victimizing women in order to drive story, and they haven't. They've had a while now to show remorse and some redeeming qualities in their psycho/villains and explore their motivations, and they haven't. There's many more problems I've seen since the beginning that have only gotten worse with time.

I'm willing to take on a new regime if it means daytime is dying anyway and if it means I won't be getting the poisonous vision of this writing regime on my screen everyday.

Really? Try AMC or GH. The complaints of soap fans from other shows is so consistent to me that I barely notice it anymore. I will say that Y&R fans have recently fallen into disenchantment while the other soap fans have become accustomed to it.

The backlash against Y&R's writers have been every bit as bad as GH and AMC over the past 4 months or so, IMO. Especially on this board.

Fans will always complain, but the backlash on the boards against Y&R seems extra intense at the moment, and I for one understand it completely.

The point I am making is that overall there is a vicious cycle of firings that has been perpetuated by both the network and the fans and no one seems willing to take a step back and determine a more viable long-term solution. Daytime is dying and the fact of the matter is that soaps aren't as entertaining as they once were.

Daytime might be dying, but I'd like to say at least they tried everything they could do to save it before it went off.

There might never be a viable long-term solution, but if we want this current vision for this show to change, they only way to do that is by getting a new writing regime, especially since this one has been set in its way for a while now and that doesn't appear to be changing.

Tyra and Devon was wrong on so many levels that I do not know where to begin.

Indeed and it's more proof to me that this current writing regime doesn't learn from its mistakes. Devon being a pervert that had sexual feelings for his family was a flop ever since the time he had similar feelings for Lily. Also, these people are never written for, and this is what they give them when they bring them out for one episode a month or so? I don't even need to get into the horrible writing for black characters on this show that's only gotten worse with time with this writing regime.

Edited August 12, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I don't want Lynn Latham I can't stand that rainbow color hair hack bitch.

I ;like Jack because I love what he did for Davetta Lily. She wanted to become somethnig other themn married to Daniel.

That is my biggest problem with these writers. Except for a few protected characters, the beloved vets are being moved out by younger characters. Billy is now the center of his family rather than Jack, Jill will surely be overshadowed by her sons and grandson, Victor is being made to look like a fool and outwitted by his pyschotic son, Nikki became wall paper up until last week, while Nick was on five days a week. Neil is around to prop Lily or her story. Kevin and Jana have all but replaced Michael and Lauren as the center of their family.

I have no problems with that. The show is called the YOUNG and the RESTLESS not the OLD and COMPLACENT. At some point the main focus has to be the next generation of characters and the former leads have to move into a supporting role.

Aren't the people you're saying have stolen the spotlight roughly the same ages that the main players were back when the show started?

I have no problems with that. The show is called the YOUNG and the RESTLESS not the OLD and COMPLACENT. At some point the main focus has to be the next generation of characters and the former leads have to move into a supporting role.

Aren't the people you're saying have stolen the spotlight roughly the same ages that the main players were back when the show started?

The RESTLESS part entails the older characters, IMO. Again, like every soap there should be a balance of old and new. Actually that she be the MAIN word running through writer's minds.

Soaps are a multi-generational format that should serve the interests of various age groups, with an ensemble cast of rotating front-burner characters. Y&R has historically thrived in that particular format.

I can't even say Y&R is phasing out many of the their veteran cast. They're just writing for them horribly and most cases, dumbing them down or portraying them as out of character.

Not to mention, there's a horrible problem this writing regime has with neglecting certain members of the cast, hence the balance is often so off.

Y&R's veteran cast has always been front and center, but they always had a healthy mix of younger and new characters that were well-developed. I think right now, their younger cast and whatever new characters this writing regime creates are so poorly defined and so poorly integrated that many just don't care for them.

Y&R's focus has never strictly been on youth, it has always been multi-generational drama.

The focus on only youth at the expense of other age groups is some Brian Frons philosophy, and we've see how well that's working on ABC Daytime.

Edited August 13, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Soap storytelling goes through phases. Sometimes things work well. Sometimes things are mediocre. And there are times that the phase results in piss poor storytelling. All of the writers have suffered from this. It's just over time, we remember Marland and Bell's great stories more than we remember their duds. And they did have duds.

Someone mentioned the OLTL story for Kish. Just 4 months ago, everyone was calling for Carlivati to be fired during the Rerape of Marty and the beginning of the Morasco Fiasco. Now he has onced again been placed on a pedestal as an example. I think the praise for both Carlivati and MAB is really also part of the problem. There is no way they can possibly operate at those high expectations for 5 days out of the week and 52 weeks out of the year.

Personally, I think there are still stories with great potential on Y&R. MAB has been in this position before when she first assumed HW duties last spring. She worked her way through it then and I think she could work her way through it again. And maybe she needs to shake up her staff and find a better creative partnership.

The Adam story, the Devon story, the Mary Jane story, the Deacon story are the only stories that I find repulsive. The other stories have potential.

What I'm not confident about is that even if MAB and Sheffer are fired, we have no control over who they hire. The replacement could be far worse and then what? Complain until we get the next batch of writers? It doesn't make much sense to me.

I wouldn't say people are placing Carlivati on a pedestal. If you look at the episode thread there are as many complaints as words of praise (although that's mainly my fault) and other boards are also mixed.

The difference between OLTL and Y&R right now in terms of storytelling is that I think OLTL can tell some stories right. I haven't seen this with Y&R.

One of the reasons fans have become dissatisfied with the show is the poor storytelling. I don't think fans just wrote off the "dream team". It actually made me feel very sad to come here and go to other boards and see people who were so excited about Adam/Rafe, or about Phillip's return, slowly become disillusioned and depressed by what unfolded onscreen. The same happened with Deacon's return. And with MJ. And with Mac's return. And with Billy/Mac reuniting. And with the Nikki/Paul relationship. And with Adam's gaslighting.

I have not seen them tell one solid story in many months. The closest is the Lily cancer story, which at times is barely even about Lily.

I have watched Hogan Sheffer ruin 3 soaps and I just don't believe he knows how to tell a soap story. I think this goes beyond fans just being perpetually unhappy with the people in charge. This is much more pervasive and damaging.

I have no problems with that. The show is called the YOUNG and the RESTLESS not the OLD and COMPLACENT. At some point the main focus has to be the next generation of characters and the former leads have to move into a supporting role.

Aren't the people you're saying have stolen the spotlight roughly the same ages that the main players were back when the show started?

At some point would be fine, but the very clumsy, obvious degradation of once important characters (Nikki, Jack, Lauren, and even though this is not new for them, Jill and Paul) feels very forced. The other complaint I have is that they are doing a horrible job at bringing in the new characters to replace those they deem unworthy. Their big new stud Billy is a pale imitation of Jack at his best, or even at his mediocre, and shoving him into every story and having women fall over him doesn't make a difference. Adam is a disaster and I still have no idea where they are going with him. The Scoobies, who are poised as the younger generation, are a mess, and the one who is most tolerable (Daniel) is the one whose portrayer may not be around that much longer. Noah has been squandered and viewers have no reason to care. Abby is a joke. Eden is a joke. Mac is a bore. Colleen is irrelevant. Victoria is irrelevant.

Not even getting into the Shick/Phick fiasco and the huge damage done to Sharon and Nick.

That leaves Chloe, who is often poorly written and who survives mostly because of the abilities of her portrayer, and Chance, who hasn't been around long enough to ruin.

Edited August 13, 200916 yr by CarlD2

I have no problems with that. The show is called the YOUNG and the RESTLESS not the OLD and COMPLACENT. At some point the main focus has to be the next generation of characters and the former leads have to move into a supporting role.

Aren't the people you're saying have stolen the spotlight roughly the same ages that the main players were back when the show started?

You know I absolutely agree with this..it is absolutely time to focus on the next generation. The problem is this (and this is not really a bash against the actors coming up)but they are as BORING AS DIRT!!! For me, they have no ONSCREEN PRESENCE whatsoever. I don't know, maybe it is just me..but being pretty and handsome doesn't cut it for me if you can't hold my attention. For goodness sakes, I am more drawn to a bloody stuffed cat and it manages to entertain me. Mr. Kitty vs. Devon, Amber, Daniel, Kevin, Jana, Heather, Colleen, Tyra..let..me think about that for a second..Mr. Kitty it is!!

I don't think that Nick/Sharon have been damaged..it is just their dysfunctions on steroids and very strategic!! Probably the only s/l I have laughed at this entire time along with Victor/Ashley...hilarious beyond words!!

Edited August 13, 200916 yr by JimTolkien