People want ot make Adam unredeemable over this, but it was clearly established that he did not intend to cause this. He was trying to drive her nuts to render Victor alone...not kill her baby.

The problem with that is that TPTB completely bulldozed his remorse.

The recast timing didn't help but TPTB really dropped the ball.

Replying to crap in the episodes thread about 'Adam burnt a fetus'. I don't dare reply there, because that is not "Episodes talk". So, I'm replying here.

Yes, of course he burned fetal material. At that point, it was probably just a teaspoon full of fetus, and the rest was miscellaneous fluids. Maybe a tablespoon at most. Let's not have images of Chris Engen picking up this cute pink little cherub and burning it. We weren't to that point.

Plus, who knows if the stairs caused the miscarriage. I'm serious. It doesn't usually happen that instantly. The child could well have been dead some time before that--and resorbed. The escapade on the stairs could just have knocked it loose, not killed it.

There are too many unknowns. People want ot make Adam unredeemable over this, but it was clearly established that he did not intend to cause this. He was trying to drive her nuts to render Victor alone...not kill her baby.

Yes, he got rid of it somehow with Ashley never knowing, and he's the reason she miscarried in the first place. What did he think was going to happen with gaslighting a pregnant woman walking on a flight of stairs during a blackout? Did he expect that to be safe for a pregnant woman? Plesae

Dude felt so bad about what he did, he stole another baby for her.

Yes, another nasty unredeemable crime to cover another crime, and again, victimizing yet ANOTHER woman.

Some people think the baby stealing makes him unredeemable...but in his mind (not crazy--just twisted) he thinks Sharon was too much of a mess to have that baby...and Ashley needed it for her sanity.

In his mind he's gonna fix Sharon up too--by giving her another baby. He's working on it right now.

Of course he's a twisted f*ck...but that's what makes daytime spin...unless you're some kind of "moral absolutist".

Or unless you constantly try to cover up bad writing and illogical characterization. How did Adam go from the black sheep son to someone who would gaslight a pregnant woman to a baby stealer in less than a year? Whatever.

And everyone needs a payoff, Adam's done too much damage to get off free and he's never paid for any of it. People still can't get over Gloria and the skin cream fiasco, and what Adam has done is a million times worse.

Mark, I think you desperately want this show to work, so you come to these absurd rationalizations for everything, when it's almost never in the writing of the show.

The story was so horrendously plotted, paced, and badly acted by Muhney that I couldn't invest in it or saw anything intriguing about its "twistedness."

Edited December 18, 200915 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Instead, Ashley is just sort of there, and Sharon's grief was sidestepped so she could become a pawn for alpha male posturing.

Exactly.

The same way Nikki was reduced to a punching bag & Sabrina a vestigial uterus for Grambo.

Yes, he got rid of it somehow with Ashley never knowing, and he's the reason she miscarried in the first place. What did he think was going to happen with gaslighting a pregnant woman walking on a flight of stairs during a blackout? Did he expect that to be safe for a pregnant woman? Plesae

And Ashley on top of being treated by a doctor who molested his patients has never had any post delivery complications from age, the fall, the miscarriage or even dealt with nursing Faith?

Ugh.

Edited December 18, 200915 yr by DeeeDee

And everyone needs a payoff, Adam's done too much damage to get off free and he's never paid for any of it. People still can;t get over Gloria and the skin cream fiasco, and what Adam has done is a million times worse.

Even I want Gloria gone at this point. But the reason is not what she did (I could have forgiven that early on, if she'd been remorseful). But she keeps on doing evil stuff.

The twist in Adam that happened over a year ago, after prison, was a mistake. The writers think they "explained" it when Victor yelled at Adam in prison "Act like a Newman. Take after your father". That was supposed to be the moment where Adam turned.

I'm not justifying the behavior. I'm simply saying that the intent with Adam is for him to be an object lesson in "the ends don't justify the means". Mentioning Gloria is actually a good tie him...he's someone who doesn't learn.

Sylph, LOL, I'm a psychologist not a psychiatrist. And I'm a moral relativist. So you can damn me with two flaws in one .

For me, honestly, what sells it is (a) what appears to be his genuine affection for Ashley at this point, ( his attempt to 'fix' things by getting Ashley a baby, © his heartbroken weeping to the voice of his mother (yes--manipulative--but it worked for me), and (d) what appears to be his genuine emotion for Sharon. (If he irks Jack and Nick at the same time--so be it. But I do buy that he also is enjoying Sharon).

Because I don't like it when soaps are morality tales--I hate it, in fact--I have no problem with Adam being a consistently reckless, ruthless front burner character.

And Ashley on top of being treated by a doctor who molested his patients has never had any post delivery complications from via age, the fall, the miscarriage or even dealt with nursing Faith?

Ugh.

I still think at some point--around the reveal of Adam's doing the baby switch--he's gonna be shot. I think Ashley and Sharon (and Nick and Victor and Nikki) will all be prime suspects, but I think the doctor will be the actual shooter. And then the doctor will kill himself.

That's another spec script for 'ya, Sylph .

Yes.

I wouldn't go that far. Not with the likes of Hayley Erin roaming around. I'd recast Abby, Mac and Heather before I'd recast Lily.

Honestly, I'd put Hayley Erin, Mac and Heather ahead of Lily.

I wouldn't have said that a few weeks ago. But now that they're letting Hayley wear leather and be a mouthy b*tch to her mother....I'm good with her. She plays that part of it pretty well.

That said, I'd be happy to see Lily and Abby recast. I just like Heather, and I wish she'd get different stories, but I like both the character and actress. Mac, it pains me to say, should go too. Maybe even ahead of Abby.

I'd watch the "who shot Adam" stuff, but only if he was shot dead.

Because I don't like it when soaps are morality tales--I hate it, in fact--I have no problem with Adam being a consistently reckless, ruthless front burner character.

I don't see them writing him as reckless or ruthless. I think they assume we feel sorry for him and genuinely enjoy his relationship with Sharon. The self-pity, along with the lack of chemistry and the women having no point of view, is one of the reasons this story does not work for me.

Honestly, I'd put Hayley Erin, Mac and Heather ahead of Lily.

Same thing here. I'd actually put every single female on the show ahead of Lily, now that Sursok was fired.

Sylph, LOL, I'm a psychologist not a psychiatrist. And I'm a moral relativist. So you can damn me with two flaws in one .

Alphan referred to you once as a shrink, so I just figured. I didn't know.

Because I don't like it when soaps are morality tales--I hate it, in fact--I have no problem with Adam being a consistently reckless, ruthless front burner character.

But that's precisely what people like(d) about them. Not preachy stuff, but payoff. Karma. Like DeeeDee said: moral relativism killed soaps. There is no one to root for, and people change "camps" on a whim, and then no one even tries to redeem them.

That's another spec script for 'ya, Sylph .

Even I want Gloria gone at this point. But the reason is not what she did (I could have forgiven that early on, if she'd been remorseful). But she keeps on doing evil stuff.

The twist in Adam that happened over a year ago, after prison, was a mistake. The writers think they "explained" it when Victor yelled at Adam in prison "Act like a Newman. Take after your father". That was supposed to be the moment where Adam turned.

That was never explained and the character was ignored for months when he was in prison. That is not good writing, and it certainly is confusing to many.

I'm not justifying the behavior. I'm simply saying that the intent with Adam is for him to be an object lesson in "the ends don't justify the means". Mentioning Gloria is actually a good tie him...he's someone who doesn't learn.

Yes, and these characters and their actions get old, disgusting to watch, unredeemable, and boring after a very short span of time. You can't have characters doing one stupid thing after another, especially with the way this show is paced and plotted.

For me, honestly, what sells it is (a) what appears to be his genuine affection for Ashley at this point, ( his attempt to 'fix' things by getting Ashley a baby, © his heartbroken weeping to the voice of his mother (yes--manipulative--but it worked for me), and (d) what appears to be his genuine emotion for Sharon. (If he irks Jack and Nick at the same time--so be it. But I do buy that he also is enjoying Sharon).

None of this works for me, the execution was horrible.

Because I don't like it when soaps are morality tales--I hate it, in fact--I have no problem with Adam being a consistently reckless, ruthless front burner character.

Blah, boring, and again, gets very old after a while. how many times can you watch the same character do the same things without some change in the charactr's personality and environment?

I still think at some point--around the reveal of Adam's doing the baby switch--he's gonna be shot. I think Ashley and Sharon (and Nick and Victor and Nikki) will all be prime suspects, but I think the doctor will be the actual shooter. And then the doctor will kill himself.

That's another spec script for 'ya, Sylph .

Watch them do it, since they clearly read message boards for bad ideas, and the thing is, this character should have never been driven to this point.

I still think at some point--around the reveal of Adam's doing the baby switch--he's gonna be shot. I think Ashley and Sharon (and Nick and Victor and Nikki) will all be prime suspects, but I think the doctor will be the actual shooter. And then the doctor will kill himself.

Who shot Adam is fine but Ashley looks like a complete moron for not dealing with her body or questioning the birth.

She has YET to say anything about nursing the baby which should be a problem given her age & the after effects of the pregnancy.

She plays that part of it pretty well.

Erin pales in comparison to Thomas-Scott, Maitland, Bregman, Cast, Rowell, Tom & Bashioum.

Mac, it pains me to say, should go too.

Mackenzie should stay it's CHLOE who should go.

Erin pales in comparison to Thomas-Scott, Maitland, Bregman, Cast, Rowell, Tom & Bashioum.

If she can only play very limited material which is tailored to her one note, then she should be recast. Otherwise what is the point of the character.

I know Melody Thomas Scott was an actor for most of her life before she got Y&R, so was Tricia Cast, but when I think about what they did with the very complex and emotionally draining stories they had around Hayley Erin's age, while she can barely muster up enough ability to smug on cue, it's sad.

If she can only play very limited material which is tailored to her one note, then she should be recast. Otherwise what is the point of the character.

I know Melody Thomas Scott was an actor for most of her life before she got Y&R, so was Tricia Cast, but when I think about what they did with the very complex and emotionally draining stories they had around Hayley Erin's age, while she can barely muster up enough ability to smug on cue, it's sad.

Exactly.

Those actresses are among the best in the business because they raised the bar in the genre.

Erin is ridiculously out of her depth & the vets clearly have to softball her because she can't keep up.

If a psychiatrist writes this kind of post and condones sheer lunacy and deep psychotic behaviour...

He wasn't condoing it, honey.... he was EXPLAINING it.

I know Melody Thomas Scott was an actor for most of her life before she got Y&R, so was Tricia Cast, but when I think about what they did with the very complex and emotionally draining stories they had around Hayley Erin's age, while she can barely muster up enough ability to smug on cue, it's sad.

Amen to this... when you look at Beth's performances from 1982, and compare them with Hayley's??? That girl's parents HAVE to know somebody .