16 minutes ago, AbcNbc247 said:

I would have loved to have seen Audra Lindley's Liz in action and Nancy Wickwire's too. 

 

Here's an audio clip of Liz ripping poor Susan to shreds about Fred. I'm not sure if Audra and Nancy though. This video also has some clips of the famous Rachel/Alice scene before Alice's engagement party and the scenes where Jim tells Mary about Rachel.

 

 

 

That's Audra Lindley, screaming her way through yet another scene. I loved watching her rant and rave.

 

Virginia Dwyer was brilliant in the episode where Mary finds out about Rachel's baby. It was actually unnerving to watch the character fly off the handle.

 

11 minutes ago, Neil Johnson said:

 

Lemay preferred writing for neurotic characters.  So, if he could find (or manufacture) even a little neurosis in a character, he was happy writing for them.  He found neurosis in John, Pat, Lenore, Alice, Steve, Rachel, Willis, Iris, Angie, etc. He didn't like Mary, because she was basically the show's matriarch and a happy well-adjusted woman -- an archetype he didn't understand, and thought unnecessary.  He wanted very badly to turn Mary into a meddling shrew like Aunt Liz. But when Dwyer was reluctant to play the role that way, he simply brought Liz back from Arizona, gave Liz most of the scenes he'd formally been writing for Mary, and then minimized Mary to the point she was "out of town" much of the time.   

 

And yet, no matter how much Lemay altered and diminished the character of Mary, the audience continued to adore her. The daytime press was awash with complaint letters from AW viewers that year, thanks to the show's axing of Dwyer, Reinholt and Courtney. They lost Susan Sullivan shortly as well, and all the departures left a huge hole on the canvas.

Edited May 9, 20205 yr by vetsoapfan

8 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

That's Audra Lindley, screaming her way through yet another scene. I loved watching her rant and rave.

 

Virginia Dwyer was brilliant in the scene where she finds out about Rachel's baby. It was actually unnerving to watch Mary fly off the handle.

 

And yet, no matter how much Lemay altered and diminished the character of Mary, the audience continued to adore her. The daytime press was awash with complaint letters from AW viewers that year, thanks to the show's axing of Dwyer, Reinholt and Courtney. They lost Susan Sullivan shortly as well, and all the departures left a huge hole on the canvas.

 

Heck yes.  Mary was NBC's version of Nancy Hughes and Bert Bauer, and the fan's loved her.  You simply don't kill-off a soap opera's matriarch.  

 

12 minutes ago, Neil Johnson said:

 

Heck yes.  Mary was NBC's version of Nancy Hughes and Bert Bauer, and the fan's loved her.  You simply don't kill-off a soap opera's matriarch.  

 

 

I agree, and I think most other fans would too. We understand if the show has absolutely no choice (for example, when the actress passes away in real life), but if it's TBTB's choice, viewers revolt. I've always felt that Y&R made dreadful mistakes when the show killed off both Jennifer Brooks and then decades later, Liz Foster. John Abbott, too. (We can't forget about beloved patriarchs!)

Virginia Dwyer certainly did a terrific job of keeping herself hidden, after her departure from AW.  She appeared in one national commercial for Bufferin or Anacin, and then disappeared.  I've never found even one post-AW photograph of the woman.  And that's strange, because she lived in Manhattan for the rest of her life, and was socially active in charities, etc.  But she somehow avoided having her photo taken.  Or at least found a way to keep them off the internet.   

Lemay was such a weird writer. He did such good things in his writing for both AW and the Matthews family and then seemed to intentionally gut it all by the time he left. All of these soaps seemed to take the same course. AW went from being about the Matthews family to being about Rachel. GL went from being about the Bauer family to being about Reva. ATWT went from being about the Hughes family to being about Carly. AMC went from being about the Martin family to being about Erica. As a person who loves family drama, I never liked that trend. Nor understood it. I guess they were trying to appeal to their largely female audience members who could relate to a central female character. That always made the shows boring to me. What made soaps great was the ensemble aspect of them. Besides, I hated Rachel, Reva, Carly and Erica. 

6 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

 

Heck yes.  Mary was NBC's version of Nancy Hughes and Bert Bauer, and the fan's loved her.  You simply don't kill-off a soap opera's matriarch.  

 

 

Had AW kept the character of Mary alive and active on the show's canvas, Dwyer could have been on the show for its entire 35 year run.  Dwyer passed away in 2012.  The show really could have used a mother figure in its later years after Ada passed away in 1993.  

12 minutes ago, watson71 said:

 

Had AW kept the character of Mary alive and active on the show's canvas, Dwyer could have been on the show for its entire 35 year run.  Dwyer passed away in 2012.  The show really could have used a mother figure in its later years after Ada passed away in 1993.  

For Lemay to criticize Dwyer and run her off the show when Hugh Marlowe was nothing special as Jim says something...maybe Lemay was impressed by Marlowe's CV

9 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

For Lemay to criticize Dwyer and run her off the show when Hugh Marlowe was nothing special as Jim says something...maybe Lemay was impressed by Marlowe's CV

 

I agree- from what I've seen of Marlowe on YouTube, he always looked like he was struggling to get his lines out and trying to find his place on the cue cards 🤣

I was watching an episode from 1981 where Pat and Olivia are talking about a fundraiser and one of them suggests approaching a station with the call letters WCCB for help with a telethon. A few years later Mac's TV station was KBAY. Even with the Michigan/Illinois confusion I don't think anyone has ever intended to depict Bay City as west of the Mississippi. It never occurred to me before but KBAY is a bit of an anomaly. 

19 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I was watching an episode from 1981 where Pat and Olivia are talking about a fundraiser and one of them suggests approaching a station with the call letters WCCB for help with a telethon. A few years later Mac's TV station was KBAY. Even with the Michigan/Illinois confusion I don't think anyone has ever intended to depict Bay City as west of the Mississippi. It never occurred to me before but KBAY is a bit of an anomaly. 

 

I'd never thought about that, but I do remember the TV station in later years was KBAY.  It's unfortunate they didn't stick with the Michigan location, and maybe even put it into cannon, rather than the abrupt move to being a suburb of Chicago.  I remember when Reginald Love said he could see the Chicago skyline from the balcony of Tops Restaurant.  Until then, Bay City had never been said to be close to Chicago.  

 

Edited May 10, 20205 yr by Neil Johnson

On 5/9/2020 at 6:22 PM, vetsoapfan said:

 

Lemay admitted, himself, that he diminished Virginia Dwyer's presence on the show by shifting story focus from Mary to Aunt Liz. But even Liz Matthews went through a transformation under Lemay's pen. Previously, she had been much more fierce and aggressive, particularly when Audra Lindley was in the role.  Lindley's Liz would fly into rages and scream and SCREAM at people, whereas Lemay turned Liz into an overly-emotional busybody with good intentions. There's a famous scene (available on youtube) in which Aunt Liz is looking after Alice, who is teetering on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Rachel marches into the house and announces that she is kicking Alice out of it so that Rachel can move in with Jamie. As Rachel attacks and berates Alice, Aunt Liz just sits there meekly on the bed with tears in her eyes. HA! The Aunt Liz of yore would have ripped Rachel's hair out, dragged her down the stairs and thrown her out the door...screaming at her all the way!

 

As Lemay's writing started to deteriorate in 1975, I believe that it was mainly the core elements of the show still intact, and the talented actors involved, which kept it afloat.

Yes.  During Audra Lindley playing the role of Liz Matthews she destested Jim and his children and frankly could probably care less if Rachel wanted to throw Alice out.  Does anyone recall what Liz and Rachel's relatioship was like when Lindley was playing Liz and Strasser was playing Rachel?  However, I thought I read a snyposis when Daly Took over the role as Liz and Lenore saw her for the first time, Liz attempted to be friendly with her and Lenore would not have it.  Liz mentioned to someone why cant people leave the past behind and more or less stated she was a changed woman.  Maybe at least, he was attempting to show the audience that Liz was a changed woman

That Alice/Rachel scene at Steve's house..would have been better with Mary instead of Liz.

 

Lemay hated everything that symbolized soaps..hence his attempt at moving focus away from the Matthew's (a symbol of traditional soap) to the Cory's (his creation).  And his love of theatre actors worked in the short term..but long term it hurt with cast changeovers.

 

 

 

Kyra Sedgwick debuts as Julia (1982-83)

Dawn Benz as Sally Frame (Spring 1983)

 

Edited May 11, 20205 yr by John

7 hours ago, denzo30 said:

Yes.  During Audra Lindley playing the role of Liz Matthews she destested Jim and his children and frankly could probably care less if Rachel wanted to throw Alice out.  Does anyone recall what Liz and Rachel's relatioship was like when Lindley was playing Liz and Strasser was playing Rachel?  However, I thought I read a snyposis when Daly Took over the role as Liz and Lenore saw her for the first time, Liz attempted to be friendly with her and Lenore would not have it.  Liz mentioned to someone why cant people leave the past behind and more or less stated she was a changed woman.  Maybe at least, he was attempting to show the audience that Liz was a changed woman

 

During the Strasser/Lindley era, Rachel tried her very best to ingratiate herself to Aunt Liz, but Liz never really gave her the time of day.

 

It is possible that Aunt Liz had mellowed during her time away from Bay City. Her son Bill was dead and she was alienated from her daughter Susan and daughter-in-law Missy, and extreme loneliness can force people into reflection. I just wish we had SEEN more of Liz's transformation, rather than just being asked to accept it after the fact. (Still, Irene Dailey was so brilliant that she could sell us on anything.)

5 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

During the Strasser/Lindley era, Rachel tried her very best to ingratiate herself to Aunt Liz, but Liz never really gave her the time of day.

 

It is possible that Aunt Liz had mellowed during her time away from Bay City. Her son Bill was dead and she was alienated from her daughter Susan and daughter-in-law Missy, and extreme loneliness can force people into reflection. I just wish we had SEEN more of Liz's transformation, rather than just being asked to accept it after the fact. (Still, Irene Dailey was so brilliant that she could sell us on anything.)

 

During Dailey's early months on the show, Liz was still rather nasty and self confident.  She was never quite as villainous as Audra Lindley's Liz, but she wasn't the pathetic lonely woman we saw later.  It wasn't until around the time Mac rejected her romantic interests in favor of Rachel (late-'74?) that Liz started to become more sympathetic. And then after Mary died (April, '75), Liz mellowed a bit more as she assumed a slight motherly role with Pat, Alice, and Russ. As someone else has mentioned, she became less a trouble-maker, and more a meddler.  I wish Lemay had allowed Liz to maintain more of her elitism and fire. I think she would have been more functional as a legacy character in the later years of the show.   

Edited May 11, 20205 yr by Neil Johnson