5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Did you see Beverlee McKinsey as Emma? 

 

Yes, and she was mesmerizing. Quiet pain shone through her portrayal. She was born to play iris, of course, but I have always wondered about how Emma would have evolved if McKinsey had remained on the show in that role. I think the audience would have grown to love her and feel protective of her.

12 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Steve Frame was initially presented as a young Cash McCall-type character, with no indication that he had grown up dirt-poor on a farm. When he later told Alice about his roots, I could accept it because it made valid psychological sense. He had lied about or at least hidden the true story of his origins because he was ashamed of where he came from. It was a depressing, dead-end world he was desperate to escape from, to deny. In real life, people do create elaborate backstories for themselves once they are far removed from their original, unpleasant environment. I wonder if Reinholt took exception to this redirection of his character mainly because he disliked Lemay, rather than because the writing was poor. As much as I criticize Lemay for his petulance and arrogance, and for his dismissal of beloved actors like Courtney and Dwyer, the first several years of his tenure on AW were brilliant; the stuff erudite soap fans dream about. I had no problem with Steve's revelation about being born on a farm, any more than I had a problem about the formerly-virulent Aunt Liz becoming softer and more vulnerable after fate and her own atrocious behavior led her to losing her entire family in one way or another. It made the characters richer.

 

I watched AW consistently during Courtney's first 11 years there, and while I found her a bit too overly-expressive and "bubbly" at the very beginning, I thought she grew into a very strong, impressive actress with an obvious star appeal. Heck, when she passed away, even the controversial producer Paul Rauch, who had fired her from AW to begin with, said that she had been a "great gal" who always turned in stellar performances. It's a shame that younger soap fans, who had never seen her work for themselves, seem to accept Lemay's denigrating comments as gospel. I would refute his comments very vigorously.

 

As for Willis Frame, I actually found him to become more likable when Fitzpatrick was replaced by Leon Russom. The second actor brought a layer of vulnerability and humanity to the role that had been lacking during Fitzpatrick's portrayal.

 

I think someone previous posted in this thread an image from one of the soap mags from the 1970's featuring an interview with Reinholt. He was critical of the writing on AW, saying how the current writer failed to understand the Steven Frame that he and Agnes Nixon created when the character first appeared on the show.

 

It's funny you mention Leon Russom as Willis. He's the only Willis I remember, but Lemay stated in his book that he didn't have the drive to write for the character of Willis once Fitzpatrick was fired and took over. I'm not sure why, as I thought Russom was a very capable actor.

Edited December 7, 20169 yr by zanereed

8 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Yes, and she was mesmerizing. Quiet pain shone through her portrayal. She was born to play iris, of course, but I have always wondered about how Emma would have evolved if McKinsey had remained on the show in that role. I think the audience would have grown to love her and feel protective of her.

 

Thanks. I hope some of that shows up someday. I've seen the photos of her as Emma but I don't think it does the material justice. 

I think Lemay's book is fascinating and indispensable for any soap opera buff, but you can only go with him so far before you form your own opinion. The first time I ever saw Jacquie Courtney was in that '70s episode of OLTL they used to trot out all the time, the one where Viki gives birth to her son Kevin. Jacquie is there as Pat Ashley and immediately segues into doing a Groucho Marx bit, she's a trip and totally self-assured. I was always impressed by what I saw of her AW work later on, and I think Lemay didn't know how to deal with her because she was her own unique type, without having to be written into one by him. He seemed much more comfortable crafting characters from scratch, and uncomfortable with any performers who had star personas before he came aboard.

 

I did think the original Willis Frame was really interesting from what I've seen of him - young, brash and a little off-kilter or disturbed. You wouldn't see that many guys like that today.

6 hours ago, zanereed said:

 

I think someone previous posted in this thread an image from one of the soap mags from the 1970's featuring an interview with Reinholt. He was critical of the writing on AW, saying how the current writer failed to understand the Steven Frame that he and Agnes Nixon created when the character first appeared on the show.

 

It's funny you mention Leon Russom as Willis. He's the only Willis I remember, but Lemay stated in his book that he didn't have the drive to write for the character of Willis once Fitzpatrick was fired and took over. I'm not sure why, as I thought Russom was a very capable actor.

 

 

Yes, Reinholt expressed dislike for how the character of Steven Frame was altered by Lemay, and I can understand that he felt his past portrayal of the character was negated because of the revised backstory, but I still say it made valid psychological sense. Steve was a man who had trouble opening up and being vulnerable and trusting with people anyway. He was ashamed of his roots, and desperate to escape from them, so it's not a stretch to believe that he had hidden the truth about his origins from the world.

 

Russom was more vulnerable than Fitzpatrick, and I guess Lemay just did not feel as inspired to write for a softer, more repentant Willis. It's too bad because as a viewer, I only started to give a damn about Willis once Russom was in the role.

 

 

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

Thanks. I hope some of that shows up someday. I've seen the photos of her as Emma but I don't think it does the material justice. 

 

 

I don't know if any of McKinsey's work as Emma has survived, because it aired before most people had VCRs, but you never know. I personally think 1966 to 1975 were AW's best years, and finding any episodes from that era would thrill me to death.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Vee said:

I think Lemay's book is fascinating and indispensable for any soap opera buff, but you can only go with him so far before you form your own opinion. The first time I ever saw Jacquie Courtney was in that '70s episode of OLTL they used to trot out all the time, the one where Viki gives birth to her son Kevin. Jacquie is there as Pat Ashley and immediately segues into doing a Groucho Marx bit, she's a trip and totally self-assured. I was always impressed by what I saw of her AW work later on, and I think Lemay didn't know how to deal with her because she was her own unique type, without having to be written into one by him. He seemed much more comfortable crafting characters from scratch, and uncomfortable with any performers who had star personas before he came aboard.

 

I did think the original Willis Frame was really interesting from what I've seen of him - young, brash and a little off-kilter or disturbed. You wouldn't see that many guys like that today.

 

 

 

 

I agree. Courtney was great,  and quite charismatic as a romantic heroine. She could be warm, amusing, vulnerable,  and strong when she had to be. So many younger viewers take Lemay's assessment of her talents to heart, without ever having seen her on-screen, but the more you read Lemay's own comments, the more you get the sense that a lot of his negative opinions seem to be borne from petulance or annoyance.  Once people actually see Courtney's material for themselves, I think they can see how good she really was. One of the best performances of her career, IMHO, was when Pat Kendall visited her son Brian's grave on OLTL. Heartbreaking, like Brad Maule at Maxie's beside, listening to his dead daughter's heart, on GH two decades later.

On Monday, December 05, 2016 at 5:50 PM, zanereed said:

 

Most likely. If you look at some of the other soaps during this time period ("The Guiding Light", for instance), if a major, popular character would have murdered someone, it would have been by accident (Joe Werner accidentally pushing Lee Gantry out a window, for example). But in this case, Walter strangled Wayne. It may have been a "heat of the moment" action, but the writers had Walter murder Wayne. Then, Walter does nothing to help his pregnant wife as she is convicted and put away for a crime Walter committed.

Not really defending Walter, but he did not strangle him.  He hit him in the head with a statue.  Remember, Lenore was on trial for it.  Noone would believe she could strangle Addison, but she could whack him over the head with an object.  It was a crime of passion.  Addison goaded him, goaded him, played on Walter's insecurities and jealousy.  That said, Walter still did what he did.

 

Now, I didn't see this.  I've read this.  Read some 70s novels that recapped this period.  But one of my first concrete memories of watching the show is Lenore on trial for that murder and i remember that Walter had done. He was defending her and was torn.  Then she was axquited and he just said nothing.   Not denying that his actions are unconscionable just clearing up how Addison died and that it was a crime of passion.

 

For me. the first Willis was a flat out bad guy.  Lemay's book read to me as the softening of that character was due to the recast.  That Russom didn't possess the qualities to portray Willis the same way.  Whatever the case, the character sure changed.  IIRC, the change started after Russ found out what he was doing to Sharlene and beat the crap out of him.

On Monday, December 05, 2016 at 5:50 PM, zanereed said:

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, rick55 said:

Not really defending Walter, but he did not strangle him.  He hit him in the head with a statue.  Remember, Lenore was on trial for it.  Noone would believe she could strangle Addison, but she could whack him over the head with an object.  It was a crime of passion.  Addison goaded him, goaded him, played on Walter's insecurities and jealousy.  That said, Walter still did what he did.

 

Now, I didn't see this.  I've read this.  Read some 70s novels that recapped this period.  But one of my first concrete memories of watching the show is Lenore on trial for that murder and i remember that Walter had done. He was defending her and was torn.  Then she was axquited and he just said nothing.   Not denying that his actions are unconscionable just clearing up how Addison died and that it was a crime of passion.

 

For me. the first Willis was a flat out bad guy.  Lemay's book read to me as the softening of that character was due to the recast.  That Russom didn't possess the qualities to portray Willis the same way.  Whatever the case, the character sure changed.  IIRC, the change started after Russ found out what he was doing to Sharlene and beat the crap out of him.

 

 

Sorry, yes - he hit him with that statue he got from Liz! I always get confused with the storyline because Walter always cried when he held Lenore's scarf that Wayne threw at him. I'm always reminded more of that scarf versus the statue. Crime of passion it may have been, but it still put Walter in a corner when Lenore was put on trial for Wayne's murder and he did nothing.

On 12/7/2016 at 5:52 PM, DRW50 said:

 

Thanks. I hope some of that shows up someday. I've seen the photos of her as Emma but I don't think it does the material justice. 

 

I would love to see that, as well. Unfortunately, I doubt any of her footage as Emma still exists. That being said, I remember the time I first got to see Steve Frame meet Alice Matthews. I never thought in a million years I would ever get to see that. So, I suppose anything is possible.

Edited December 9, 20169 yr by zanereed

On 12/5/2016 at 5:19 PM, DRW50 said:

 

Between this and dragging out the story of Caroline poisoning Pat (wasn't one of the reasons because Caroline was popular with some viewers?), I wonder if the writers/producers at the time were starting the amorality-doesn't-have-to-be-so-bad kick that soaps would really dive into about 20 years later. 

I didn't think that Lemay was writing during this time?

On 12/7/2016 at 10:12 AM, vetsoapfan said:

 

Yes, and she was mesmerizing. Quiet pain shone through her portrayal. She was born to play iris, of course, but I have always wondered about how Emma would have evolved if McKinsey had remained on the show in that role. I think the audience would have grown to love her and feel protective of her.

I would love to have seen Bev playing Emma.  So diff than the Tresa Hughes I seen and yes as much as Iove Elizabeth Ashley as an actress, I don't think she was casted well for Emma Frame Ordway

On 12/5/2016 at 11:03 AM, vetsoapfan said:

 

 

Walter Curtin had killed Wayne Addison, and then allowed his wife Lenore to be charged with the crime. She ended up spending Christmas in prison, while being pregnant no less, while Walter remained free at home. endlessly agonizing about how guilty he felt.

 

 

 

 

Lemay killed off Walter in a car crash, even though the executives at P&G balked at losing an actor whom the audience liked. Lemay's (logical) reply to that was, if P&G had not wanted to lose a popular actor, why had they allowed his character to be turned into a sniveling killer who would allow his pregnant wife to languish in prison for his crime?

 

Dufour did indeed end up on SFT after he left AW, and won an Emmy Award for his role on that show.

 

 

 

 

Over the years I have encountered many younger soap fans who have accepted Lemay's criticisms of Courtney as valid, even though they had never watched the show while he was writing it or she was acting on it. Folks have told me what an awful actress she supposedly was, even though *I* was the only one in the conversations who had actually witnessed her work every single day for a decade. Had you ever seen any clips of Courtney on AW before you read Lemay's book? I'm curious. And did your opinion of her talent change after you saw some of her work?

 

 

 

 

Lemay, brilliant a writer as he was, often belittled people whom he  chose to dislike. His comments could be quite petulant and churlish, and often hypocritical. He acted as if he could read actors' minds, and then gave them absurd negative motivations of his own creation, which he could complain about.

Quite possibly so.  I was too young when J Courtney was actually playing Alice and Susan Harney was the Alice I really knew.  I think Lemay did destroy the character of Alice even though I loved Susan Harney.  It was my understanding that the producer wanted her off and George Reinholt  as well.  Until it was pointed out in his book she wrote her lines on hands or kept scripts under her, I did begin to see the constant eye drop.  Regardless, it was a stupid move on AW, Pand G and Rauch to fire her.  She was a heroine on the show.  When She returned later years is when i really got to see her day and day out.  Not so much in 84 or so since I was in HS.  Her returns in 89 who bravo.  She looked beautiful and was an outstanding actress.  This was the time that AW should have really gone out of their way to bring her back to show.  Maybe it would have survived longer

He wasn't. The material was pre-Lemay. 

5 hours ago, denzo30 said:

I didn't think that Lemay was writing during this time?

I would love to have seen Bev playing Emma.  So diff than the Tresa Hughes I seen and yes as much as Iove Elizabeth Ashley as an actress, I don't think she was casted well for Emma Frame Ordway

Quite possibly so.  I was too young when J Courtney was actually playing Alice and Susan Harney was the Alice I really knew.  I think Lemay did destroy the character of Alice even though I loved Susan Harney.  It was my understanding that the producer wanted her off and George Reinholt  as well.  Until it was pointed out in his book she wrote her lines on hands or kept scripts under her, I did begin to see the constant eye drop.  Regardless, it was a stupid move on AW, Pand G and Rauch to fire her.  She was a heroine on the show.  When She returned later years is when i really got to see her day and day out.  Not so much in 84 or so since I was in HS.  Her returns in 89 who bravo.  She looked beautiful and was an outstanding actress.  This was the time that AW should have really gone out of their way to bring her back to show.  Maybe it would have survived longer

 

Lemay only came in at the very end of the Caroline-poisoning-Pat story, thought it was absurd, and quickly wrapped it up. The story had been conceived and written by Robert Cenedella.

 

Elizabeth Ashley was totally miscast as Emma, no question about it.

 

If Courtney occasionally had to look at cue cards/bits of dialogue written on her fingers, I cannot blame her. At the time she was the show's leading heroine, and was on-screen a huge amount of time. With all that dialogue to remember, day-in and day-out, virtually any actor would need help keeping up. She was certainly better than many other actors on the soaps, who stumbled over their lines regularly.

I love the last scene with Rachel and Alice on the boat, when she tells Alice that she saw Steve. You could see the tangled history and the respect between the two characters, and the actresses had such chemistry together. It's just a special moment. 

11 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I love the last scene with Rachel and Alice on the boat, when she tells Alice that she saw Steve. You could see the tangled history and the respect between the two characters, and the actresses had such chemistry together. It's just a special moment. 

 

YES! It was the best part of the anniversary week, IMHO. I was only disappointed that they did not have Reinholt play in any scenes with Courtney.

On 12/9/2016 at 1:05 AM, vetsoapfan said:

 

Lemay only came in at the very end of the Caroline-poisoning-Pat story, thought it was absurd, and quickly wrapped it up. The story had been conceived and written by Robert Cenedella.

 

Elizabeth Ashley was totally miscast as Emma, no question about it.

 

If Courtney occasionally had to look at cue cards/bits of dialogue written on her fingers, I cannot blame her. At the time she was the show's leading heroine, and was on-screen a huge amount of time. With all that dialogue to remember, day-in and day-out, virtually any actor would need help keeping up. She was certainly better than many other actors on the soaps, who stumbled over their lines regularly.

 

On 12/9/2016 at 1:05 AM, vetsoapfan said:

 

Lemay only came in at the very end of the Caroline-poisoning-Pat story, thought it was absurd, and quickly wrapped it up. The story had been conceived and written by Robert Cenedella.

 

Elizabeth Ashley was totally miscast as Emma, no question about it.

 

If Courtney occasionally had to look at cue cards/bits of dialogue written on her fingers, I cannot blame her. At the time she was the show's leading heroine, and was on-screen a huge amount of time. With all that dialogue to remember, day-in and day-out, virtually any actor would need help keeping up. She was certainly better than many other actors on the soaps, who stumbled over their lines regularly.

True but it once it was pointed out it seems apparent she did that often.  Regardless, stupid move on AW and the P and G for allowing her to be fired...  Someone out here mentioned that they believed Lemay had a hard time writing for actors who had been on the show prior to his hire. Something I totally agree with. Well, he had great things to say about Connie Ford, Bev Penthoby, Susan Sullivan.  Others who were already on the show but it seems like he wanted to clean house when he came on board.  Not so unusual on most business's when someone new comes in.  I loved the final scene between Rachel and Alice at Macs funeral.  That was the last time we saw them together.  It was genuine 

 

On 12/9/2016 at 3:30 AM, DRW50 said:

I love the last scene with Rachel and Alice on the boat, when she tells Alice that she saw Steve. You could see the tangled history and the respect between the two characters, and the actresses had such chemistry together. It's just a special moment. 

I said that too.  They made a scene between Jamie and Steve where Jamie saw his father in a dream why not do one with Alice and Steve?  I often wonder how the scripting and writing and story would have went had Doug Watson not died just weeks before the anniversary.  Maybe it would have been Alice who saw Steve at the light?  I heard that the intent was not to make Gwen nuts but they were not able to bring the character Willis back so they used her instead.  It would have made sense of Willis to trying to get back at Rachel.. 

On 12/5/2016 at 5:50 PM, zanereed said:

 

Most likely. If you look at some of the other soaps during this time period ("The Guiding Light", for instance), if a major, popular character would have murdered someone, it would have been by accident (Joe Werner accidentally pushing Lee Gantry out a window, for example). But in this case, Walter strangled Wayne. It may have been a "heat of the moment" action, but the writers had Walter murder Wayne. Then, Walter does nothing to help his pregnant wife as she is convicted and put away for a crime Walter committed.

 

Perhaps if Walter had immediately confided in Lenore about his actions and lamented over what he had done, the character may have stood a chance at survival. Maybe. I don't know how the character remained popular after letting Lenore remain in prison and doing nothing.

 

I also wanted to ask you about those who Lemay did prefer, such as the first Willis Frame, John Fitzpatrick. Reading Lemay's book, he really thought Fitzpatrick was an even better actor than Reinholt, and that he was going to use Willis as a key player in Bay City, until circumstances forced a recast. I've only seen a few episodes with Fitzpatrick in the role, but I admit I wasn't exactly "WOW'd" by him (or the Willis character, in general). Maybe I didn't have enough episodes to properly have an his work. Any thoughts on Willis/Fitzpatrick, vetsoapfan?

I only saw the first Willis in some of these recent releases of footage but like Susan Harney, Leon Russom was really the only Willis I knew and he did play the role for about 5 years.  That is long time in soap world.  Very different Willis's.  What was the reason Fitzpatrick left?

Edited December 10, 20169 yr by denzo30

I don't know why Fitzpatrick left, it doesn't seem to me that he was there for very long ... but I much preferred him to Russom's Willis. He was brash, cocky, sexual. I would never have bought Gwen with Fitzpatrick's Willis, it just wouldn't have worked visually. Russom, as someone pointed out above, was much softer in his portrayal -- though he was probably a better actor. He certainly built a long acting career. I never saw Fitzpatrick again.

 

As to Jacqueline Courtney: I pretty much worship at Harding Lemay's feet, but I have always thought he was way off on her.

2 hours ago, teplin said:

I don't know why Fitzpatrick left, it doesn't seem to me that he was there for very long ... but I much preferred him to Russom's Willis. He was brash, cocky, sexual. I would never have bought Gwen with Fitzpatrick's Willis, it just wouldn't have worked visually. Russom, as someone pointed out above, was much softer in his portrayal -- though he was probably a better actor. He certainly built a long acting career. I never saw Fitzpatrick again.

 

As to Jacqueline Courtney: I pretty much worship at Harding Lemay's feet, but I have always thought he was way off on her.

 

Lemay is vague about why Fitzpatrick was replaced, but in his autobiography, the scribe claims that Fitzpatrick was fired for reasons other than his on-screen performances...whatever that means.

 

I agree that Lemay was way off in his assessment of Courtney, but of course he has the right to his opinion. It's just a shame that his ire about certain actors had such a crippling effect on the core of the show.