Steve, what if it were a downloading system. You would download it once and then that would "count." Then people would have it on their computer already for watching multiple times and that would prevent all the multiplicity (sic) that fanbases can sabotage "voting" with. I'm sure the technology is there to do this, and it may keep Nielsen workers employed. Count downloads, not hits.

The problem is fragmenting. Now I can watch Live, I can watch DVR, I can watch online, I can watch by iPod download, etc. That's a lot of different ways of tracking. For example, I was just reading that Heroes, which has taken a huge tumble in the live ratings this year has actually increased its DVR viewing by quite a bit. This tells me that the show isn't losing as much audience as thought. It's just that the audience who watches the show is watching something else at that time. (Tough time slot with Heroes, DWTS, 2 1/2 Men, and Prison Break on the four majors, Gossip Girl on the CW, and who knows what else on cable channels)

Yeah Heroes hasn't lost a lot of it's audience, but many reports are sayign that they will still lose ad dollars this year. Even if NBC shows the advertisers the DVR rating it won't matter to them.

I just got a DVR. First one I have ever had. I have had it for 2 days now and I haven't watched the first commercial since I got it. I record everything on my DVR that is on a commercial network and play it back on my DVR and guess what I skip through all the advertising. I doubt I will ever watch a commercial again - if I can get by with it.

And that is why you won't see DVR ratings matter that much until there is some way to not allow us to skip the commercials.

So even in the end Heroes having a big DVR rating is not going to help them out a lot. Advertisers just don't care that much about that rating yet. They are looking at it some but I see it a long time before they put a lot of credit in it. They did start this year having Nielsen put a switch into the DVR's that lets them know how many people are skipping the comercials and how many are watching them. So they are looking at it.

I predict if it starts to grow more to that way either they will come up with some agreement with the DVR companies to not allow skipping - in much the same way that some CD companies are making their CD's not recordable and non-uploadable to the computer. Or like some DVD's have a block on them so they can't be copied.

Sara Bibel talks about Night Shift's disappointing ratings.

Well, it's a terrible, badly written show. On SoapNet. So this isn't surprising.

Hold the fort! (I disagree Night Shift is bad, but this is a topic shift).

Did you see Roger Newcomb's post of the Soapnet ratings? I realize this comes from ABCD publicity, but these are the first hard numbers I recall seeing. ALSO, they reveal something fascinating!!

SOAPnet (October 2008)

Prime (M-Su, 8:00 p.m.-11:00 p.m.)

In Total Viewers (364,000), driven by all-time highs for ALL MY CHILDREN and ONE LIFE TO LIVE, October 08 qualified as SOAPnet's most-watched month in almost two years, or 20 months (since February 07), and third-most-watched in the net's history. Additionally, SOAPnet recorded its largest October audience ever.

In Women 18-49 (120,000), October 08 wrapped as SOAPnet's most-watched month in Prime in more than a year (since September 07), ranking as the net's top rated October on record in the target demo.

Year to year, SOAPnet improved by 27% in Total Viewers (364,000 vs. 286,000) and by 4% in Women 18-49 (120,000 vs. 115,000).

Sales Prime (M-Su, 7:00 p.m.-12:00 a.m.)

In October 08, SOAPnet delivered its largest audience in the net's history in Total Viewers (375,000 tied September 06), and qualified as the net's top rated month in a year in Women 18-49 (122,000 since October 07).

Universe Estimates (# of U.S. homes)

Available in 71.0 million U.S. homes as of November 08, SOAPnet increased its household presence by 3.9 million homes in a year's span (67.1 million)

THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS (M-F, 7:00-8:00 p.m.)

Growing its audience for the fifth straight month, "The Young and the Restless" recorded its largest monthly audience ever on SOAPnet in Women 18-49 (204,000), and third-largest yet in Total Viewers (642,000).

Versus year-ago levels, "The Young and the Restless" climbed by an impressive 50% in Total Viewers (642,000 vs. 428,000) and by 27% in Women 18-49 (204,000 vs. 161,000).

ALL MY CHILDREN (M-F, 8:00-9:00 p.m.)

Delivering its second straight month of growth, October 08 stood as "All My Children's" most-watched month on record on SOAPnet in Total Viewers (461,000), and hit October-best levels in Women 18-49 (150,000).

Versus year-ago levels, ALL MY CHILDREN improved by 44% in Total Viewers (461,000 vs. 320,000) and by 11% in Women 18-49 (150,000 vs. 135,000).

ONE LIFE TO LIVE (M-F, 9:00-10:00 p.m.)

Recording its second consecutive month of gains, ONE LIFE TO LIVE delivered its largest audience ever on SOAPnet in Total Viewers (417,000 tied June 06), increasing over year-ago levels by a substantial 38% (303,000 October 07).

Enjoying its most-watched month in over one year in Women 18-49 (150,000 - since September 07), ONE LIFE TO LIVE hit October highs in the core demo, up by a solid 34% year to year (112,000 October 07).

GENERAL HOSPITAL (M-F, 10:00-11:00 p.m.)

In October 08, GENERAL HOSPITAL generated its largest October audience of all time in Total Viewers (442,000), garnering the show's largest audience in seven months (since March 08).

Source: Nielsen Media Research (National Ratings, October 08: 9/29/08-10/26/08, Most Current).

Now, to give you a sense of how many viewers this adds to the base for each show, I'm going to plot total viewers of each show for the October 13 week, and then add in the extra total viewers due to Soapnet. (I know the 18-39 demo matters most, I know there is all kinds of fudge in these numbers...but let's just look at this as a crude approximation, okay?)

(Unspoken: It is sad that neither Days nor GH:NS appear in this self-congratulatory release)

Now, the above figure doesn't adequately convey, IMO, how much the viewership increase represents. So, the next figure does something a little different.

I standardized it so that each soap's network viewership represented "100%" of its typical viewership. Then, I plotted the proportional increase ABOVE network numbers (Toups' Live + Same Day) that Soapnet represented. As you can see, Soapnet adds between 14% (Y&R) and 18% (AMC) beyond the typical network viewership.

There is much of interested here to me.

1. Are any of the "declining" viewers we see on the network ratings due to Soapnet (or online) viewership? Again, this makes me WISH we could get those numbers.

2. If the network declines are partly due to this shifting viewership pattern, does that mean that Soapnet/legal online are HURTING the soaps, or that the soaps are being successfully saved (by preparing them for the post-broadcast-network world)?

Who do I have to do favors for to get CBS' aggregate numbers for their CBS.com/Hulu.com/fancast.com/Msn.com/Youtube.com viewership numbers??? I NEED those numbers .

Who do I have to do favors for to get CBS' aggregate numbers for their CBS.com/Hulu.com/fancast.com/Msn.com/Youtube.com viewership numbers??? I NEED those numbers .

*dabs Mark's feverish brow with cold washcloth and whispers gently*

We can't get those number for you, honey. We just can't. You'll have to learn to do without them. Shhhh I know it hurts...I know...

Seriously though if somebody can find a way to pull and combine that data and sell it potential advertisers they'd have a gold mine on their hands.

*dabs Mark's feverish brow with cold washcloth and whispers gently*

We can't get those number for you, honey. We just can't. You'll have to learn to do without them. Shhhh I know it hurts...I know...

Seriously though if somebody can find a way to pull and combine that data and sell it potential advertisers they'd have a gold mine on their hands.

LOL

I would be shocked if CBS didn't get those online numbers from each source it licenses streaming to. I find that when there is a sponsor on a particular episode of Y&R or GL (often just one for the whole episode--say--Blackberry), that same sponsor sponsors that episode at EACH streaming source.

I don't know how they are serving those ads...but I do know the online ad servers have a very good sense of number of views/unique views. CBS, I would suspect, is getting DAILY reports on this.

The fact that CBS has been actively expanding online venues for its shows, and the fact that Brad Bell agreed to stream his, suggests to me that (a) these numbers are GOOD, and ( they have managed to reduce international piracy.

But this is the two edged sword. If you grow a platform (online), is it coming at the cost of broadcast numbers?? Gosh darn if I wouldn't like to study that! (But that would require a direct data collection to directly address that issue).

This last weekend, I travelled on business, missing the Thurs/Fri shows of Y&R (and B&B...but I've been ignoring that lately--except yesterday's Betty White episode--which got no promotion). I never did have time to watch Friday's show (until I got home to my trusty DVR), but I watched Thursday's show during a brief 38 minute break Monday morning.

My point is this: The online offering kept me up to date, and it was likely "counted". But it also meant there was one less viewer for the broadcast offering on Friday. It makes me wonder if those Friday "drops" we are seeing are because people travel/go out on Fridays, and they catch up later via the online broadcast.

This isn't just academic speculating. The answer to that question has direct implications for the future viability of soaps.

Let me say that -- even if they are spinning -- I am delighted that Soapnet is not in decline. I wish we could see those figures monthly.

heres the thing tho, it doesnt matter how many people watch them on soapnet, hulu, sbc.com, youtube, etc...

why?

because ratings are used for advertisers. therefor they dont care about any of that [!@#$%^&*] unless they are paying for ad space on those outlets.

thats why ad companies do not care about DVR ratings.

i dont think people doubt the audiance is there, just now speard out over all the above outlets for soaps. but the people need to be there in the daytime on the networks for the ratings to count to get the ads.

jmho.

heres the thing tho, it doesnt matter how many people watch them on soapnet, hulu, sbc.com, youtube, etc...

why?

because ratings are used for advertisers. therefor they dont care about any of that [!@#$%^&*] unless they are paying for ad space on those outlets.

thats why ad companies do not care about DVR ratings.

i dont think people doubt the audiance is there, just now speard out over all the above outlets for soaps. but the people need to be there in the daytime on the networks for the ratings to count to get the ads.

jmho.

You're obviously right, in terms of TV ads.

But my point is...if you can show the audience is still there, and many ARE watching ads (e.g., Soapnet tends to get a lot of live views, with high viewer loyalty, meaning they don't switch the channel; Internet has forced ads), then you can show that the TOTAL NUMBERS are there, and you can offer the advertisers a multi-platform deal.

"You can advertise on CBS daytime. If you ALSO want to hook the online viewers, this is how many more viewers you would get there...." and so forth.

Anyway, my interest is selfish. I just want to prove that Y&R in the US gets at least 6 million viewers a day :-).

heres the thing tho, it doesnt matter how many people watch them on soapnet, hulu, sbc.com, youtube, etc...

why?

because ratings are used for advertisers. therefor they dont care about any of that [!@#$%^&*] unless they are paying for ad space on those outlets.

thats why ad companies do not care about DVR ratings.

i dont think people doubt the audiance is there, just now speard out over all the above outlets for soaps. but the people need to be there in the daytime on the networks for the ratings to count to get the ads.

jmho.

It's true that these numbers don't count for tradition TV ads but if you look at all those viewing opportunities as a whole other options like product placement become much more attractive. It opens up other potential revenue streams.

It's true that these numbers don't count for tradition TV ads but if you look at all those viewing opportunities as a whole other options like product placement become much more attractive. It opens up other potential revenue streams.

Bingo!

There is another thread on this in "DTS". I made a similar point there (before seeing this). What it shows is that the soap audience may not be dying as fast as we think...they're just MOVING _and_ soaps may be catching up with them (via soapnet, online). That's important. Over time, it means the networks should pay LESS for these shows, but the other media should pay MORE.

I think it is also informative, as I said in the other thread, that Soapnet fails at 11 pm no matter what...Soaptalk, Y&R, Days, GH:NS. They need to abandon that slot.

I feel badly for Days, sincerely. It is not really thriving in ANY platform (though it seems to be rebounding a little in the daytime). I suspect the I-Tunes thing ain't doing too well (NBC should stream it, just like they do EXCELLENTLY with their primetime shows). Days has not received "laudable" ratings on Soapnet at either 7 pm or 11 pm.

Another lesson from this, I think, is that ROUGHLY the success of the shows is daytime is mirrored on Soapnet. Y&R is the big daytime winner...and it is the big winner on Soapnet. AMC/OLTL/GH are all pretty close to each other in daytime...and they are on Soapnet too.

This means that the nets can't ABANDON daytime or promotion. Because it seems clear that Soapnet is getting viewers who WOULD watch daytime but can't.

SoapNet ratings matter to soaps because Disney gets ad money and Sony licensing fees on their show's performances...

Even with those SoapNet numbers all ABC soaps are in the dumps. Remember the days when GH pulled in 4 million viewers a day - on network TV. Now they can't even pull in 3 million - including SoapNet! Driving off 25+% of your audience in not even 5 years is amazing and unseen of I guess, at least with TPTB still being in charge. Y&R's numbers look rather ok including SoapNet's figure. WIth CBS in general I suppose a good chunk of 0.1 million (Y&R could be more, since CBS has streaming links for it on it's front page along with the CSIs...) viewers watch their shows now online, which doesn't matter taht much, though.

It's true that these numbers don't count for tradition TV ads but if you look at all those viewing opportunities as a whole other options like product placement become much more attractive. It opens up other potential revenue streams.

This all sounds great....but is it just me, or does it seem the fans are the only ones doing their homework??...These networks (outside of Y&R and B& seem to be busy looking for ways to make more excuses.