23 hours ago, Vee said:

I'll definitely be curious for your thoughts on S6 and especially the post-Dunne seasons after. You don't need to wait on me getting there though, I've perused this thread at length in the past and of course any poster can opine on whatever you like.

Did Dallas ever actually live up to those female-centric ads?

Dallas introduced some interesting female characters, but they never amounted to much. I thought Michelle was a good addition, but she was interacting with people who were too old for her so she felt out of place. I also thought they did a great job with re-introducing a stronger, more snarky Lucy, but she sat there for like three seasons with absolutely no story. The best of the bunch for me was Cally, JR's child bride. She had one of the worst introduction stories I've ever seen, but her relationship with JR was surprisingly very interesting and she was a great actress. 

One other factor to the writers burning through the Season 5 story bible early, was that the season was extended from 22 to 25 eps. (can't find the source now, but remember reading that) And then seasons 6-8 were all super-sized at 30 eps each.

= =

My impression is that Cathy Geary was more of a character created "on-the-fly", rather than planned with much foresight. After Ciji was killed off, Lisa Hartman signed a contract for a new ABC show "High Performance". Fortunately it tanked in the ratings and LH became available.

I did finish Season 5! Very solid stuff. I think I may try to cover it and the opening eps of Season 6 in one go in a more abstracted overview, because I'm very busy right now. I did want to make a point of admiration re: the well-known climactic scene of the season with the cliffhanger at the hotel and Karen being shot in that blood-red dress by Twin Peaks' own Grace Zabriskie. I especially liked the great climactic moment where the whole eternal Val/Gary/Abby triangle is explicated onscreen with Gary literally torn between them physically in the parking lot. Man, if Mack's stunting here isn't grounds for divorce I don't know what is.

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Vee

Another great commentary on Abby in Season 5 (and overall) from KL writer Richard Gollance on Krasker's blog, who notes a line that I also found very important in the finale:

"There was a line of dialogue in the Season 5 cliffhanger," Gollance recalls, "and when Donna Mills saw it, she told me it was very much the key to her character. It was during the fight with Ted in the hotel room, where he's blasting her for everything she's done that season, and she says, 'I didn't think of it as lying. I never thought of it that way.' And for Donna, that was the core of the character." But Gollance had his own ideas. "I said to her, 'I think of Abby as a control freak who, in her need to control, inadvertently causes things to fall apart around her -- which ultimately keeps her from getting what she wants.' That's how I came to see the character over time. I didn't walk into the show with that, but as I continued with it, that's how I came to view her. And Donna liked that: it fit with her own take on the character, and it gave her something to play."

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Vee

7 hours ago, Vee said:

Another great commentary on Abby in Season 5 (and overall) from KL writer Richard Gollance on Krasker's blog, who notes a line that I also found very important in the finale:

 

 

I love that interpretation, and it adds to the character’s backstory from before she arrived.  Abby has an entire past that was not as explored as it could have been.  I kind of wish we had gotten an origin season with implications for the present like we get with Mack/Anne.  We know she is frustrated because she has all this talent and intelligence and feels unfulfilled as time went on before she was with Gary.

Knots has the best set of characters by far during this period.  They cut the right people and invested in the best new characters, minus Richard, who I think could have still had a place on the show.  Although would Laura have been given the excellent development she received this season if Richard was still there?

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by titan1978

3 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I love that interpretation, and it adds to the character’s backstory from before she arrived.  Abby has an entire past that was not as explored as it could have been.  I kind of wish we had gotten an origin season with implications for the present like we get with Mack/Anne.  We know she is frustrated because she has all this talent and intelligence and feels unfulfilled as time went on before she was with Gary.

I agree that would've been very interesting. We saw very little of Jeff Cunningham but the man who turned up in Season 2, though he'd obviously gone to an extreme that was unlike who he might have been before, was no picnic. I seem to recall Abby mentioning her and Sid's father too, but I don't remember the details.

Knots has the best set of characters by far during this period.  They cut the right people and invested in the best new characters, minus Richard, who I think could have still had a place on the show.  Although would Laura have been given the excellent development she received this season if Richard was still there?

I previously had thought it wasn't totally necessary to cut Richard at the end of Season 4 given Pleshette's immense talent, but now I'm more inclined to agree with him that he would've had no solid place on the canvas. More importantly, as you say, I don't think Laura could've fully blossomed with him around. I do think they could've brought Richard back more often in a recurring role, but that's another pipe dream. And while Laura's role has already become somewhat transformed, her voice and attitude are so different that I think losing her down the road will be very tough.

59 minutes ago, Vee said:

 

I previously had thought it wasn't totally necessary to cut Richard at the end of Season 4 given Pleshette's immense talent, but now I'm more inclined to agree with him that he would've had no solid place on the canvas. More importantly, as you say, I don't think Laura could've fully blossomed with him around. I do think they could've brought Richard back more often in a recurring role, but that's another pipe dream. And while Laura's role has already become somewhat transformed, her voice and attitude are so different that I think losing her down the road will be very tough.

The only two natural places I could see Richard are as Abby’s scheming lawyer or someone working for Sumner.  And both placements kind of ice out Laura.  And of the two, I prefer Constance and Laura.  And I loved Abby’s rapport with her lawyer in season 5.  They both bring an element of sardonic wit to their portrayals.  And I really did miss Laura.  This might be blasphemy, but I could have taken more seasons of Laura instead of what we did get for Valene.

Its so funny to me that I also didn’t watch the show as it was airing back then.  I was watching the more hip programming on NBC (LA LAW, Hill Street Blues). I caught episodes airing I think on TBS one summer when I was not in classes, it was almost the end of the show and I got really hooked in by what turned out to be the last 8 or so episodes.  They even aired the special that happened just before the final episode.  I fell in love with Abby even then, only in a couple of episodes and the special.  Then it all started over again with season 1, and I got to see the classic storylines thanks to my VCR timer!

It is surprising to me how quickly they seemed to ditch the Gary/Cathy affair - I'm talking about it now simply because one of Cathy's few scenes (possibly her only one) in the Season 5 finale is telling Laura she's leaving town because there's nothing for her here and it's obvious to her Gary is not over Val. This seems to come out of almost nowhere to me; Gary and Cathy discuss their past entanglements very openly and honestly once they become intimate, particularly once he's in isolation with her faking his death at the police station, and there doesn't seem to be any profound beat or confession that he can't get over either Val or Abby. Cathy seems very understanding of Gary's complicated feelings for the other two women, who they discuss, just as he is of hers for Ray (which is a great scene for her, mourning his death), and they still seem to be together. But you cut to an episode later and Cathy says she's leaving because Gary still has Val in his heart. What? I don't get it.

Obviously they were planning even then to begin to pivot away from the affair, but I think it's a little bit of a loss. Not that I think Gary and Cathy were a romance for the ages, but I personally liked their unpretentious, matter of fact chemistry and natural, athletic interplay a lot and I thought it was something very different from Mills and Van Ark. It could've driven story for a bit as his kicky midlife crisis and gone to some interesting places. But it also seems clear at the end of Season 5 (just as at the beginning of the season, when Abby had been all but positioned as the evil queen at the end of S4 before they reset) that they again decided 'hey, maybe we're not done with Gary and Abby after all,' there's still a lot of complicated love there, hence the emphasis on Abby's love and guilt over him in the final hours of the season, her willingness to risk her life for him, and Gary running after her in the car and leaving Val in the dust in the final moments of "Negotiations". Tommy Krasker again has an interesting take on the finale sequence; I don't agree with all of it but with a large portion of it, and it's beautiful analysis:

Quote

And it's here - at the moment when that stray bullet strikes Karen - that we revert back to character beats. It's easy to remember the Season 5 cliffhanger as a whirlwind of Wolfbridge-driven activity, but it all comes down to these final moments. Gary grabs Val, and pulls her out of Mack's jeep - but Abby manages to open the door of the limo in which she's being held captive and calls out to him, begging him to rescue her. And he doesn't give it a second thought -- she just risked her life to save his, and maybe, just maybe, he's more in love with her now than ever. He drops Val like a sobbing sack of potatoes, and rushes after her. 

Plus ça change: at the end of the day, Gary is pretty much the same man he was at the end of Season 3; he'd rather chase after Abby than sit still with Val. (A part of you thinks, "Oh Val, you poor fool. He was never going to pick you." And perhaps, if you study Valene's face hard enough, you see her own realization that she's blown it - again.) And Mack, even as he's left holding Karen's limp body, declares the hollowest of victories: "We got 'em. Oh Karen, we got 'em." Mack's obsession with taking down Wolfbridge has so consumed him that he actually sees this outcome -- one that resulted in his wife being shot, perhaps fatally - as a win.

42 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

The only two natural places I could see Richard are as Abby’s scheming lawyer or someone working for Sumner.

Richard returning as Greg Sumner's major domo in say, Season 6 or 7 - once he's firmly established with Laura - would've been very interesting, at least as a guest spot. Richard as a stand-in for Jim Westmont is interesting but I think would've just become an ancillary role. But yes, I agree I prefer McCashin hanging around.

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Vee

I did not see Mack as celebrating a win - he's absolutely shattered and is trying to cling to any shreds of sanity as he cradles the wife he may have just killed. 

The Val/Gary/Abby moment is to me not about who Gary loves more - that choice would have been true if he'd had to choose directly between them in perilous moments. He'd already saved Val.  If he'd had to choose he likely would have chosen Val. The moment is to remind us that Val and Gary will never have a simple reunion. Abby is still there, and Gary still loves her. If I had to go further I'd say the moment is also exposing the core of both relationships - Val is subjected to trials outside of her control, trials mostly just brought on by the toxicity that comes naturally to the Ewing lifestyle, while Abby is trapped in a prison of her own making. Gary can never free Abby from that prison. 

14 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I did not see Mack as celebrating a win - he's absolutely shattered and is trying to cling to any shreds of sanity as he cradles the wife he may have just killed. 

I agree, but I see it a little of both ways. Mack is completely off the spool in the last few episodes of the season with mania over Wolfbridge; anyone who tries to talk any sense into him, not just Karen but Greg, Gary, Detective Morrison, even Abby who all tell him to pull back, he can't do it. When Karen comes to him and tells him she's been contacted by St. Claire and that his life is on the line, his reaction is very literally 'that's good news! They're desperate!' She's terrified and he is elated. It's clear the writers are telling us Mack has gone way too far, and that's after he admittedly risked the lives of Val's unborn babies, something Ben rightly punches him out for when he figures out the truth, and which put all their families in a terrible state which is something Karen invokes re: the boys.

I don't think Mack is celebrating a win, but I do think he's clinging to whatever sense of rationale he has to keep himself sane, and that means going back to the central obsessive drive that got them all here: 'Getting' Wolfbridge. So it seems like he can't even mourn or regret in a functional or coherent way, he just keeps chanting his life's purpose to his wife's prone body.

The Val/Gary/Abby moment is to me not about who Gary loves more - that choice would have been true if he'd had to choose directly between them in perilous moments. He'd already saved Val.  If he'd had to choose he likely would have chosen Val. The moment is to remind us that Val and Gary will never have a simple reunion. Abby is still there, and Gary still loves her. If I had to go further I'd say the moment is also exposing the core of both relationships - Val is subjected to trials outside of her control, trials mostly just brought on by the toxicity that comes naturally to the Ewing lifestyle, while Abby is trapped in a prison of her own making. Gary can never free Abby from that prison.

I agree it's not about who he loves more, but I do think it's indicative that he cannot and will not let go of Abby no matter how much he loves Val. I do not agree with Krasker that Gary is the same man he was at the end of Season 3, but I do think Abby is a pull on him stronger than even Gary realized, which is why he abandons Val there without thought. The women have an equal place in his heart and mind at that moment IMO, which is something Gary had been denying to himself for the stretch of the final eps until that instant.

In the real world, Val would end up with Ben...and Gary would end up either with Abby..or be chasing women like Cathy.

I do recall Cathy and Gary having closure of sorts at the start of season 6...but sadly are not in one another's orbit much going forward.  

5 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

In the real world, Val would end up with Ben...and Gary would end up either with Abby..or be chasing women like Cathy.

I do recall Cathy and Gary having closure of sorts at the start of season 6...but sadly are not in one another's orbit much going forward.  

The most realistic part of Gary's arc is

when he essentially replaces "dead" Val with a much younger Kate after a brief period of time. Another example of how often realism doesn't translate to good onscreen material. (not helped by Kate's lack of personality and that she was  clearly a placeholder)

Again, you don't need to spoiler anything on my behalf at least, lol. I know Gary gets involved with Kate Whittaker.

5 minutes ago, Vee said:

Again, you don't need to spoiler anything on my behalf at least, lol. I know Gary gets involved with Kate Whittaker.

I figure better safe than sorry.  

9 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I do recall Cathy and Gary having closure of sorts at the start of season 6...but sadly are not in one another's orbit much going forward.  

They did a fantastic job with Gary/Val/Ben/Abby.  I genuinely wanted Gary and Abby to stay together and Val and Ben.  I prefer them in those pairings, even if I also am a fan of the longing and history of Gary/Val.

It does suck that Cathy and Gary no longer share much after this storyline.  He would have been a natural source of antagonism and jealousy for Joshua had their friendship at least continued on more prominently.