Generations Discussion Thread

[dc11786]

The episode that was just posted was most likely May 8. That was when "Top Gun" aired on NBC in May, 1989. Also, given the "this week" preview, it would have to be a Monday episode and May 8th is a Monday. 

I'm reading the next two chapters of the Bible which are lengthy. They cover J.D./Jessica/Lisa and Trevor/Laura/Greg. As I believe I've said, the format of this bible has character biography and then plot. In the character biography, there are not a whole lot of shocking details from the characters that we see (Laura/Trevor/Jessica/J.D.), but there is an oddly detailed description of how J.D. manages getting drafted into the Vietnam War by faking a manic depressive state with the help of a psychiatrist. The most interesting thing is what isn't said, the father of Jason Craig. Jessica vows to go to her grave before revealing who that is, but I have hopes (minor) that it might be unveiled later in the bible.

Laura and Trevor only have two children in the bible, but an additional son (Dylan) was mentioned in newspaper press releases and Laura once refers to her "sons" before Cory arrives on the scene. Cory's story is revealed in the bible to be pretty C-level; the pursuit of losing his virginity to his girlfriend Melissa and then later Jessica, both unsuccessful. The letter writing campaign for Jessica is also in the document as are references to Bill Bell's alter ego, Ben Berry, the brilliant mind behind "Tomorrow is Another Day." Trevor's mother Frances McCallum has the early stages of Alzheimer's, which will get overlooked because she is such a cold bitch. 

Laura and Trevor's marriage was arranged by Peter, who wanted Laura to marry well and not have to worry. The marriage is described as more functional than loving, which I think what came across onscreen. Trevor seems to be heading towards a mid life crisis affair with Alison Engel, the creative director at the ad agency, as they plot to usurp some of the accolades at the firm from Trevor's much younger rival, Rob Raelko (who I believe eventually morphed into Rob Donnelly). Alison seems to be the predecessor for Amy Yasbeck's character, Carla. The main account they are going after is the nationalization of Marshall's ice cream, which should be a big deal on the canvas. Trevor seems pretty vain and with mentions of high blood pressure and stress I imagine a heart attack. 

Laura ends up having an affair with Greg Sutton, who she went to school with. Greg was working class so he never had a shot with snobby Laura, but Laura did have strong sexual desires for him back in the day that she let stay on the back burner. Instead, Greg received attention from Ruth Marshall, already married with a kid. They bonded over Greg's poetry. Greg returns to work on a facial reconstruction as he is now a plastic surgeon. He stays because he runs into Laura at a benefit and eventually, after an argument between Laura and Ruth, Laura has sex with him. The Ruth/Greg/Laura dynamic is intriguing. It is stated implicitly that Laura was against Ruth/Greg because of the interracial dynamic and that Laura was aghast that Ruth would have such a dalliance in her home. Laura's racism is very present in the descriptions of her feelings about Ruth having loved Greg, even though they had done nothing. Laura is much more fascinating in the bible than anything onscreen. I have a bit more to read, but she probably suffers the most in the revisions from the page to the screen so far. Though, I'll be curious to see how the Adam as a model story was suppose to play out. 

J.D.'s story delved much more into his pursuit of reviving his career and romancing Jessica in order to secure the money to do it himself, which is basically the shell of the story that happened onscreen. The difference is he originally had a second love interest, Lisa Morgan, who is the person that Sussman states the audience would be rooting for. J.D. and Lisa would meet in New York during one of J.D.'s gigs when Lisa would be waiting tables at some club J.D. performed at. Lisa would eventually be fired and take up J.D.'s offer to look him up if she were ever in Chicago. So Lisa decides to move to Chicago (only on soap) and ends up living platonically with J.D. while trying to put off any romantic overtures from J.D. There are lots of references to Lisa's secret, but it all comes out during a teacher conference that Lisa (who has got back into teaching with J.D.'s encouragement) attends where she runs into Patricia Morris. Patricia and Lisa both have a flashback of Patricia hearing her college sweetheart Larry Morgan breaking off their engagement because "I am not the man you think I am." 

J.D.'s pursuit of a new music deal fails miserably when he realizes that Jessica is broke (she has been left nothing in her father's will but her mother's possessions). In his moment of self loathing, he connects with Lisa and he sleeps with her before she has told him about her past though he is aware that there is some reason that has kept her from sleeping with him (he already suggested lesbianism, incest, or other sexual abuse). 

I haven't completed this section (it's nearly 100 pages), but it is a shame because most of it cannot be used. Jessica had multiple marriages, which wasn't the case on the show. Timothy Craig was an entrepeneur in the bible who adopted Jason after he married Jessica. She was briefly married to a young actor who beat her. Then, she was engaged to marry Jim Weaver, a congressman. On-air, Jim and Timothy became the same character though they were briefly mentioned on-air as separate characters. In this version, Jim Weaver had been involved with foreign agents and the accident that killed him and hurt Jason most likely was the result of the international espionage. 

I'll add more when I get through this section

[Sapounopera]

I really cannot see Dorothy Lyman as Rebecca. Such a weird casting choice.

Rebecca should have been the mother of (a younger) Laura, JD, Sam, Monique and Corey. The McCallums made things more complicated for no reason. 

I liked the original Y&R (CBS) style better than the NBC style that followed. However the show needed stronger storylines and scenes from the beginning. A co-headwriter, perhaps someone like Pat Falken-Smith?

A trendier intro might have helped.

Edited April 1, 2024 by Sapounopera

[dc11786]

With more time, maybe I would have adjusted to her, but I agree that Dorothy Lyman doesn't work as Rebecca. Her Rebecca has little warmth. I think Pat Crowley managed to provide a level of heart to Rebecca that Lyman wasn't able to in her short run. I do think that Lyman's Rebecca would have been the stronger litigator, but I don't think that is really the direction the show was heading in. 

The McCallums fall apart easily because crucial pieces of their story were eliminated in the development stage. Trevor's mid-life crisis was being driven by a rivalry with a colleague at work, who would be Sam's love interest. Trevor's icy mother, Frances McCallum, was suppose to appear as a recurring character and start slowly showing more and more signs of Alzheimer's disease. Cory was suppose to be develop a one-sided infatuation with Jessica Gardner. Laura was intended to fall into an affair with an old classmate, plastic surgeon Greg Sutton, who Ruth Marshall would have been infatuated with back in the day.  Given the scope of the bible, I suspect Sussman may have initially developed the show as an hour long project. 

Due to the conservative nature of NBC, a lot of the more interesting elements are nixed leaving Sussman to figure out on-air how to restructure the show. As a result, this becomes her modus operandi; finding the show through the course of writing it. I think the general direction the show seemed to be heading in by mid-1989 (an affair between Trevor and Jessica, whether emotional or physical) was a smart way to center the family. I would have kept with the one-sided Cory/Jessica angle only for Cory to be upset about his father's relationship with Jessica from a personal angle. Laura needed more centering though because her character had substantial ties to the canvas. It might have been interesting had a nearly empty nester Laura decided she wanted to pursue a career and found herself developing her own sense of independence through something like real estate. I think the McCallum crew could have worked, but I don't blame the show for basically scrapping them. Monique wasn't strong enough alone to carry that branch of the family. 

I found the tone of the early episodes appealing, but I thought the stronger storytelling and the cast integration once Jorn Winter arrives in September, 1989, was when the show took off. The large cast of supporting characters was neat and very Y&R and I appreciated the depth of the world that was created in the beginning, but it needed to build up to that, especially in the half-hour form. I also think some of the cast isolation, which worked well on Y&R, wasn't effective on "Generations." Characters in the same circles should interact when possible. The nationalization of Marshall's Ice Cream should have been an umbrella that saw most of the cast interacting professionally and personally as a result of the professional connections. I will say strong scenes in that period really stood out though. Especially anything with Ruth Marshall. 

@Sapounopera What did you think of the character voiceovers in the early episodes? I didn't really like that device being used as often as it was.

I thought the opening was reflective of the show's concept of generations, which is also why you needed the McCallum branch. The show had two families that were made up of three generations. 

[Khan]

I can't remember whether we discussed it in this thread or in another - and I apologize, but I'm pressed for time atm, so I can't search for it either - but I think @Errol provided a pretty good breakdown for why, in his opinion, the opening sequence didn't work.

[Sapounopera]

I was shocked with Rebecca's voiceover. I remember thinking, wow, I didn't know soaps could do this, lol. Perhaps one voiceover from the show's most important character, introducing us to the most dramatic story would be enough. 

[Forever8]

Rogershope uploaded two more episodes of Generations. 

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[yrfan1983]

Thanks! Breaking news (to me at least) that Kristoff St John and Tonya Lee Williams shared a kissing scene on Generations, two years prior to co-starring on YR

[Forever8]

Another episode of Generations had been uploaded on YouTube from May 9, 1989. 

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[DRW50]

I looked several pages back and didn't see this episode - sorry if I missed it.

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You can also see Jonelle Allen very briefly at this start of this very late '00s pilot.

 

[dc11786]

Thanks @DRW50. I can´t recall if this is one I´ve seen. I know a bit of July, 1990, has popped up in the last few years, which I only recall because the tape trading collection of Generations has a gap of about mid-April, 1990 until early August.

The only story here generating any interest for me is the rivalry between Doreen and Maya. Maya using the secret of Danielle´s paternity should really be a game changer for Adam and Maya, but I am curious why this doesn´t seem to be the case. I do see the tension between Allen and Fox, which is really why the catfight several months later holds such weight outside it being wonderfully choreographed and acted by the two women involved. 

I like the conflict between Sam and Kyle over his career, which was a constant, though I find Stacey Nelkins' Chrissy such a cookie cutter NBC daytime spoiler without much depth or flavor. The original actress, Pat Tallman, played her with such flair. I don think any of the March, 1990, recasts worked for me (Nelkins, Robert Gentry, and Debbi Morgan). 

I know Morgan was a name, but I can´t help but wonder how Sharon Brown would have played the court material. I find Morgan as Chantal to be very cold. It is effective in the courtroom scenes to an extent (I just don´t care about the Eric Royal case), but the only moment of interest was when Brian Price (the reporter) kisses Chantal and there is a hint of jealousy from Eric. I think Eric had only been introduced two months earlier and was immediately thrown into a frontburner story (which makes sense now that I learned that Ericś story was originally in the bible). 

It´s a shame that the show lost its energy so quickly, but I can´t help but wonder if I would feel differently if others were in the roles. 

[dc11786]

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I don't think this has been posted in this thread yet, but it was posted several years back in the "Where Are They Now" thread. This is a music video that incorporates different found media which includes a fictional soap that mimics Generations style and stars Timothy Stickney as the Henry Marshall role. 

[DRW50]

Thanks @dc11786 that is utterly fascinating.

@Vee you probably already saw this but if not you might enjoy it.

[dc11786]

I am in the midst of watching some August-September, 1990. I think the show's individual episodes aren't always the strongest, but I am finding the overall story compelling enough to stick around. 

The Craig Gallery opening was a very fun event. Mary Gardner returns to Chicago and is discovered by Mama Viv a few days before the opening leading to the question about whether or not Jason and Monique will get the diamonds back. We see a bit of Mary's life on the farm with Vern and Junior. Mina Kolb does well with the folksy material, but I enjoyed her more as thegossipy  society matron she was when she started. Anyway, Vern and Junior realize that Mary came from money and Vern marries her. Mary shows up at the opening while on her honeymoon and everyone learns that Mary is alive and well. The sequence where Mary either regains her memory or breaks her charade is well staged with closeups on various characters. There is an attempt at a flirtation between Junior and Monique (they really have no clue what to do with Monique and Jason). The diamonds cannot be located in the moosehead so everyone returns to their ways, except for Vern who reveals to Mary he's hiding her diamonds in the coffee grounds. The ending of the farm arc is delightfully wicked with Mary promising her new family she's going to make them her infamous English trifle for the holidays. 

I don't care for the Brad Russell murder story so the fake out resolution with Christy shooting the drug dealer who supposedly killed him wraps this up quickly. The shift is to Jordan and Sam, which I like. Sam is involved in the opening and discovers that Jessica is up to no good. Jessica has been bedding down with Reginald and he convinces her he is a CIA agent. The Jessica angle is very foolish, but very in tune with what I think is NBC daytime at the time. Anyway, Sam again finds herself in the middle of a crime locked inside a treasure chest during the heist which Jordan and Reginald have orchestrated with Jessica's help. I did enjoy Rob learning that Jessica is bedding down with Reginald causing him to dump her. 

The strength still lies in Adam / Maya / Doreen / Martin story. Maya is now working for Martin which allows this to play a brief Martin/Maya flirtation. On a side note, they also tease a Jordan / Doreen relationship, which I think would have been interesting. Maya and Adam ended up going to bed together and make up, which is one of the nicer moments. 

Eric's trial takes up a lot of time, and I don't mind the chemistry between Randy Brooks and Debbi Morgan. I just don't like the court trial. I think there is some interesting angles (a celebrity football player on trial), but it is ultimately about a brand new character who killed an offscreen character. One of the nicer moments in the story is Ruth admitting that she gets a lot of her joy in life living vicariously through her children. 

The show isn't as good as it was in the winter/spring, but still nowhere near as dry as it was in the first few months. 

[dc11786]

I am in September, 1990, still. Now that I've adjusted, the show isn't terrible. There are parts that could be better developed, but I am enjoying it more and more. It doesn't seem very off brand for what NBC daytime was doing at the time. 

The strongest group remains the Marshall / Jackson / Reubens set with their interconnected dynamics mostly centered around the paternity of Danielle Jackson and the ownership of Marshall Ice Cream. Given the first thread, the constant threat of the paternity reveal is what seems to be subtext to a lot of the drama, including the second story thread. The business intrigue works in fall 1990 in a way it didn't work in spring/summer 1989, at least for me. Martin, who is covering up the fact he is constantly on the brink of financial disaster, has dumped Ruth Marshall in a stock sale transfer where Ruth buys back the 25% of Marshall's Ice Cream that she had leveraged late in 1989 to buy the Whitmore estate. Ruth's stock certificates are fake and now Martin plans to sell the company to P&K Foods and run away with Danielle and Doreen. Maya, who is now Martin's secretary, is playing double agent and running back to Adam, and, in turn his parents, about what is going on. In another story point that was laid out months ago, Doreen is in control of Martin's stock because of his IRS problems, but Martin has a power of attorney for Doreen's interest. 

Meanwhile, Doreen has bedded down with Daniel Reubens on the beach while Martin's PI has snapped photos. Martin blackmails Daniel, who in turn tells Doreen. Doreen, knowing some of what is going on, but not all of it, has decided she is done with Martin and leaves him; she takes Danielle to the Marshalls to seek refuge. At the Marshalls, Doreen learns about Martin's duplicity in business and downplays her departure to Martin when he comes to retrieve her returning to the enemy camp on behalf of her friends, Henry and Ruth. The Ruth-Doreen dynamic remains so fascinating to me especially with what's coming down the line. As a counterpoint, Doreen - Maya's relationship is equally complicated between Doreen and Adam's past, Adam and Maya and Doreen and Daniel's present, as well as Maya's decision to work for Martin which is partially to piss off Doreen (which Martin knows and indulges at times). 

The P&K Foods deal leads to a nice set of scenes with Laura McCallum and Joel Resnick, Martin's cronie. Joel has to cancel on Laura's planned European vacation and Laura makes it clear that she won't be forced to repeat her marriage to Trevor where business took precedent to her need for a relationship. Laura is essentially a dead in the water character at this point. Her "big" plot has been forewoman of the Eric Royal trial, but Gail Ramsay does well with this story beat. 

Laura's sister Sam continues to have the stronger story. The art theft stuff shaped up better than I expected as Sam continually involves herself in stuff she shouldn't (she ends up locked in a treasure box) while the art heist occurs. There is clearly some issues with the plot. A big emphasis is placed on how everything is weight sensored while Sam's added weight doesn't set off any of the sensors. The art heist also leads Rob Donnelly to realize that his wife Jessica is stepping out with Reginald Hewitt and Rob leaves for California to work on his screenplay saying goodbye to Jessica. The Rob/Jessica goodbye was sweet and I ended up being disappointed more in Rob's departure than I would have in the fall of 1989. 

The big Sam story is going in two directions. The first is the biggest with Christy Russell plotting to convince Sam that Kyle and Christy have hooked up. A typical NBC daytime trope (if not most of daytime). It's pretty well plotted that I can see why Sam thought it was real and why she and Kyle didn't end up talking things out. The preceding action to all this was Sam returning from a trip to Hawaii where she has seen her mother (offscreen) and basically been made to feel like a failure. This leads into the second Sam story direction where Jordan has convinced the dean to let Sam retake biology so she can graduate (and resolve the earlier plot). Jordan is charming enough. Gentry is growing on me, though I probably am the only person in the world who prefers George Shannon. 

The final story is Eric Royal's trial. While I wasn't the biggest fan of what I've seen, I have to admit the conclusion was fairly strong. I forgot how even struggling soaps were often good at payoff back in the day. Anyway, there is a lot of build regarding not only whether or not Eric will be found guilty, but what the sentencing will be. Benita Royal, Eric's mother, is convinced that he will be innocent and is devastated when he isn't. Similarly, Chantal's suggestion regarding sentencing will be accepted by the judge, so whether or not she will plead for leniency is made a big deal. In the end, Chantal goes for the max. By the end of the story, I did understand what Sussman was going for: is Eric going to be able to charm Chantal? Are his feelings for her real or just emotional manipulation? Maybe if I had seen the whole story, but I am not convinced. 

An intersting side note regarding the dead woman, Margaret Simpson. She had been homeless, but it sounds like she may have fled from home and was young. Her father shows up at the trial and makes an appearance and there seems to be a question about why he wasn't helping her. There are some interesting side pieces to stories that I think Sussman adds that are appealing, but come as underdeveloped when I don't have access to all the episodes. 

In the latest story, Eric is now in prison and one of his cellmates is doing drugs. The guards are in on the drug scheme and this probably seemed fairly clear to the audience that this would be how Eric gets out of prison. 

The dialogue isn't as slick as I would like it to be, but the emotional beats are there but would stick out more if someone went with more heart and less exposition. 

[dc11786]

I am into early October, 1990. The transition at the six month marks are pretty rough when they are writing out a bunch of characters (Martin and Rob with Jason now recurring) and the introduction of new characters (Ron Harper as Mr. Williams/Peter Whitmore). 

I do think the decision to reveal that Danielle is Adam's daughter as Peter returns to town with the clear intention of having another paternity reveal about to happen (Chantal is Peter's daughter) is delightfully wicked. Hindsight gives a different view on the scenes where Ruth goes in on Doreen for her deception regarding her child, while the show is slowly starting to lay the groundwork for the next big story. I can now see why the show was keeping Doreen on the edge of the story and moving her into Peter Whitmore's orbit towards the end in order to really lean into that drama. 

Kyle and Sam are a great couple even when I don't always love the story. Stacey Nelkins' Chrissy Russell is a relic of the era, a pure unhinged interloper with no real goals outside getting herself her man (Kyle).  Do these types still exist in daytime?

I don't like Jessica and Reginald, though Jessica's art caper has inspired a movie idea which she tries to sell to her old soap producer, the Bill Bell esque Leonard Cooper, who quickly plots to use the movie idea for a vehicle for his daughter. The shade is very real. 

I'm not a big fan of the Eric Royal drug dealing in prison plot. It's purely plot. 

I almost wonder if the show would have been better off playing this all out during sweeps because from what I remember, November is pretty dull. Kyle and Sam marry and I imagine Peter reveals himself to Sam but I don't remember much of the other plots coming together.