Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Kane]

Thanks for posting those. It's always nice to see an episode with the original Jeff.

I hope one day an episode with Michael Maguire's Jeff will surface - I imagine he wasn't in very many. I saw a clip of him from Quando si Ama, but it was difficult to get a sense of his take on the character.

[dc11786]

The Slater story was dumped in January, 1984, because ABC wanted to promote their telefilm "Something About Amelia" as the first time the network aired material regarding incest. Lily was shipped off to an institution in Washington.

Also, the ratings weren't great for "Loving." The show also dumped the Roger-Ann-Merrill storyline with all three actors being dumped. Callan White arrives just as news arrives that Roger has died. 

I like Scott Feraco's Jeff Hartman. I saw a couple episodes with Maguire. I think he was only there about a month to a month and half (September-October) and, at one point, it bounces between Maguire and Richard Steinmetz. Maguire didn't impress me in the couple scenes I saw.  

[safe]

From the new book ---   Ryan's Hope: An Oral History of Daytime's Groundbreaking Soap

Ilene Kristen described her time on Loving as Norman Gilpin as lovely, creative, and fun---she loved what Millee Taggart and Tom King had her do. She and Walter Bobbie stood out. She said it was stupid that she turned down a contract but stayed a year as recurring. 

Louise Shaffer wrote for Loving. She called it a bad show ---it never had anything good. Was told to write less dialogue for actors who couldn't speak English very well. Described it as a nightmare but she needed the money. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by safe

[Khan]

I think that is my overall opinion about LOVING as well.  It had so much potential, especially at the beginning, when Douglas Marland was head-writing.  But it just never seemed to progress beyond being generic and mediocre.

[dc11786]

Most of the Taggert/King period is very blurry to me because it is so heavy on Trisha/Trucker that I really have a tendency not to notice much until Jackie Babbin arrives in mid-1990. From what I´ve seen, Norma was effective in a supporting role. It didn´t seem like Norma´s story was something that needed to be featured weekly. 

I am curious when she stopped appearing as I imagine its in the late spring/early summer of 1991 as the show is switching producers and writers. Dinahlee´s waitress pal Maggie (Constance Shulman) plays a similar part later in the year. I wonder if there was any intention of bringing Norma back for the function played by Maggie. It would have given an interesting dynamic given Norma and Gwyn´s friendship and Gwyn and Dinahlee´s animosity.

I don´t know when Shaffer wrote. I thought it was in the early 1990s and the only actor I can think of that may have fallen into that category would be Marisol Massey (Abril Domeq). 

@Khan ABC never left the show alone long enough to ever really solidify itself. Personally, I would have liked to see a slightly longer run of Fran Sears and Mary Ryan Munisteri or Fran Sears with Mary Ryan Munisteri / Millee Taggert writing the show. There were times that the show was intriguing, but it was rarely must see television. I would say the actors were often the strongest part if the story wasn´t. The fact that the show´s final younger set had a pretty successful run elsewhere is pretty remarkable. I do agree there was always more 

[robbwolff]

I was just now reading the part where Shaffer talks about this. She referenced Mary-Ellis Bunim being EP. Bunim was there from Dec. 89 to April 90 according to what I read on the web. She also said Millee Taggart fired her.

[dc11786]

@robbwolff Thanks. This makes sense timeline wise. Shaffer alluded to working on ¨Tribes,¨ which aired from March-July, 1990, so she must have worked on ¨Loving¨ just prior to that. 

[DRW50]

It's those last few years, even if the creative decisions often don't work for me, where I feel like you have more unique characters, especially in the younger set. I feel like the writers got a little more of a chance at breathing room there compared to the time Shaffer was on...other than Ava and maybe Gwyn and Egypt, there weren't any interesting characters to write for.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DRW50

[danfling]

Actress Dorothy Stinette, one of the actresses who played Rose, passed away on October 23.

Here is an obituary from the Wichata Eagle:

 

Dorothy Stinnette Obituary

Dorothy Stinnette

May 22, 1928 - October 23, 2023

 

New York City, New York - Dorothy C. Stinnette, born in Wichita, KS, May 22, 1928, passed away in her Manhattan apartment October 23, 2023. A private graveside prayer at White Chapel Memorial Gardens in Wichita was her final request. Raised in Kansas on a street called Broadway and with the name Dorothy, it seems early in life her destiny would be 'the yellow brick road'. Indeed, she excelled in theatrics at Wichita East High, pursued her bachelor's degree at Northwestern University, and began her acting career with a move to NYC in the early 1950's. Always proud of being a 'working actress', she loved the stage and the many roles she played across the country. Early in her career she had a part in Murder, Inc., served as a back up to Ginger Rogers in Hello Dolly, and was a permanent cast member in such television programs as The Edge of Night, Loving, and Somerset. She was hardnosed Mrs. Hatcher in the nostalgic McDonald's commercial of the late 1980's. Dorothy always gave generously of herself to her career and to her friends and family. Preceded in death by parents Owen and Stella (Smith) Stinnett; siblings Grace (Atherton), Owen Jr., Helen (Watson), and Paul; and beloved nephew Larry Watson and a niece Cherie Branson. She is survived by nephews Mike Stinnett and Danny Stinnett and his wife Cheri; Great nieces Deidra Branson and Emily Stinnett (Cruz) and Great nephew Graham Stinnett (Melica); and Great-Great niece and nephew Ruthie and Lionel Stinnett. Our thanks to the medical staff at Bellevue and NYU Langone Hospitals and Riverside Premier Rehab Center for the months of care needed so that she could return to her apartment. Caregivers from Home Instead watched over her 24/7 during her final month and Calvary Home Hospice provided additional support the final week of her life. We thank them for the compassionate care that fulfilled her wish to reach the end of that yellow brick road while in her apartment. Dorothy was well known for her love of animals. The ashes of her last two dogs will be placed in her casket before burial. Donations in her name would be welcomed at North Shore Animal League America, Port Washington, NY, a no kill shelter that she supported.

Published by Wichita Eagle on Oct. 29, 2023.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by danfling

[j swift]

Reading @Kane 's excellent take on the Loving Murders, I didn't recall how they failed to capitalize on the momentum. 

First, they do two weeks of recap shows prior to the reveal.  Then, post-revel, everyone spends a week hanging around Corinth tying up loose ends (although Tess is the only one who actually packs and hires a moving company).

I get that they wanted to time the premiere of The City to coincide with November sweeps, but this feels like they were playing out the clock in the final quarter, rather than building up steam.

The being said, I appreciate that they virtually tore the town apart prior to the ending. Some soaps finales include a cliffhanger or a happy ending.  This one ends by leaving nothing behind.  The pillars of the community, the department store, the university, the police, most of the iconic sets, and the long time families are all abandoned.  There is no room for nostalgia, because everything that defined Loving was gone at the end.  I admire the audacity to say to the audience, 'well, since you didn't like this version of the story, we're going to blow it all up, and start something new.'  Obviously, we know in hindsight that it was also not popular, but you have to applaud their boldness.

Edited November 4, 2023 by j swift

[j swift]

Bravo @Kane !!!

Your blogpost software made it difficult to post a "like" on your Loving Murders wrapup, but it was so smart and much appreciated.

The connection between Medea of Corinto and Gwenyth of Corinth was fascinating to read.  I enjoy when an author can provide novel soap criticism, and even go beyond their own nostalgia, to write about a plot within the context of history.  Your humor, the photos you chose, the specificity of information, the appreciation for sets, and your editorial commentary made your blog a must-read for me every day.   I'd put it up there with anything written by Robert LaGuardia, Christopher Schemering, or even Roger Ebert in terms of pop culture criticism.  And I encourage fans old and new to read it as a testament to how internet media can preserve soap opera memories.

https://lovingsoapopera.wordpress.com/2023/11/10/wrapping-up-the-loving-murders/

Edited November 11, 2023 by j swift

[Kane]

I don't know quite what to say in the face of that much praise, so I'll just leave it at thank you. I'm glad you've enjoyed reading along as I make my way through what I have of the show.

@Franko The final count on Geoffrey Ewing/Debbi Morgan/Alimi Ballard is 135 for Ewing (+29 from 93/94 combined and #1 for 95), 129 for Morgan (+4 from 93/94 combined and #2 for 95), and 79 for Ballard (+4 from 93/94 combined and #8 for 95). Darnell Williams has 118 and is #4 on the year (behind Randolph Mantooth).

[Franko]

Thanks for the final rundown, @Kane. And I wholeheartedly agree with @j swift about how especially excellent the most recent posts have been. I can't wait for your commentary on late 1991-1992.

[dc11786]

First, I agree. Nice job, @Kane. I don´t share the enthusiasm for the storyline, but I appreciate the passion and dedication to details. Kudos! There are times I wonder when choices were made. I´ve seen a bit of ¨The City¨ in the past year and there are times where minor details are puklled together to create a cohesive tale, and, often, they are so minute that it highly unlikely that it was planned in advance. For example, was the intention always to have Gwyn dressed as Trisha or was that a later development? 

I felt a lot of the comments ¨Trisha might look different¨ was in case the show couldn´t secure Noelle Beck for the final plot because it was hard to tell that story without Trisha appearing at one point. Your points though may be more valid. Similarly, I think the white suit stuff seemed to be an attempt to just make it clear that the mystery woman was easy to pick out... I remember thinking it was stupid that the ¨Trisha¨ at Dunellyn was not the same figure as Gwyneth. 

In terms of the POV, would Gwyneth be walking around in her Trisha getup while this was happening? Because Gwyneth´s final speech makes it clear that there was a part of her that was unaware that she was the killer. 

Regarding the failed momentum, I think this is the bigger issue I have. The destruction of Corinth was more engaging than the construction of ¨The City,¨ which is highly problematic. There was no story to carry over, and that was probably by design because TPTB wanted the premier to be an easy access point for new eyes that tuned in for the start of a new show.

I can´t share the appreciation of the boldness. When ¨Days of our Lives" got rid of a large chunk of their long term cast in 1980, it was called a massacre and deemed a mistake. Maybe if there was more focus on the emotional fallout of all the death I could appreciate it more, but I find it an emotiionally hollow story that has moments of strong acting and script writing. Ultimately, the murders didn´t do anything for the ¨The City¨ because when you torch the whole canvas, and the carnage is cleared, all that was left was a whole lot of nothing ... which is a terrible foundation for a new series.   

The Medea references were intriguing. I would add that Trisha´s miscarriage also could play into that idea. I believe ¨Crystal¨ had an offscreen miscarriage which led to Trisha to explore her past. I don´t think that Gwyn caused the miscarriage, but it would have been interesting to consider what role that could play. 

I was surprised about Ewing until I realized he was the only one of the lot that didn continue onto ¨The City" so they had to use up his guarnatees. 

[Kane]

Although I'm sure that Gwyneth was always the intended killer, I'm not sure if Gwyneth dressing as Trisha was always intended as part of the story. Because of where the Killer POV shows up, Gwyneth couldn't have been disguised as Trisha in some of those scenes because she was around people who would have noticed.

I was surprised on rewatch by the detail that Gwyneth had bought the wig long before the family even received Trisha's letter. What was she doing with the wig before she started killing people? Playing both herself and Trisha and rehearsing their reunion?

The steam definitely runs out. I feel like the penultimate episode does a lot of stretching for time and that what happens in the last two episodes could easily have taken just one.

Another problem, as far as The City goes, is that if the point of spinning something off rather than starting from scratch is to carry over some of the existing audience, then they chose the wrong characters to make that happen. I mean, Debbi and Darnell would obviously generate interest with or without Loving, and Alex was Loving's leading man during both Randolph Mantooth's tenures, but Tony, Jocelyn, Danny, and Richard were all characters new characters, and Buck, Tess, and Frankie had only been around for 2-2.5 years and from what I recall of The City, it struggled to find stories for them. Did Buck and Tess even have a story of their own before her cancer story?

An exception is Ally, who had deep roots in Loving and had a solid jumping off point as a character trying to start anew after tragedy, but the fact that they were still trying to make Ally/Danny happen was a problem after everything the two had done to each other.

Ewing did have the advantage of playing a major part in the show's two big stories during its last months.