21 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I think many would say the same about Loving, too. If it wasn't All My Children, it came off at times that she didn't give a damn about her other shows. 

Because AMC was her baby....it was her first project and it was close to her heart.

 

AMC:

Keeping Erica emotionally immature.  By 1980, she needed to have grown up by then. 

 

5 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

Wow thank you! She was stunning!

Thinking of other bad moves by well regarded writers/EP’s I haven’t seen mentioned yet but also came to mind…

Re: Bell at Y&R. I’ll start here with a couple more of his misses not yet mentioned…

-Overkill of too much Cricket, especially 1988-91 or so.

-Blade/Rick story being the answer to Marlena’s possession. 

-The Audrey North that went south. Seriously still befuddles me to this day like what was the point?

As for Kay Alden, I just have one word: SPERMGATE.

As for Marland at ATWT, I do think his descent into writing the show into a state of permanent melancholy in 1992 was off putting. Scott/Lisa. Margo’s rape, Holden’s accident and subsequent “permanent amnesia”, mousy Vicki Harper being the one who ordered Carolyn’s execution, Ellie’s abortion and later shunning, and Hal’s “death” in succession was overkill and got the show into a dark place. The acting was superb but it was also depressing at the same time. I do assume Marland was in a dark place personally though.

Also from what I’ve seen, all his attempts to recreate Holden/Liiy/Dusty with various characters all flopped or imploded. 

Also for ATWT we had the situation of Felicia Minei Behr. Well regarded at AMC, but totally out of her element at ATWT.

23 minutes ago, Jdee43 said:

Why did they have Luke rape Laura? 

Because he "wanted" her (and he was a smoldering anti-hero), and she was too "good" to have sex with him unless she was forced to.  lol.  

But in hindsight, what they probably should've done is film it several different ways.  They should've given us a genuine seduction to "Rise", in which Luke seduces her, and she responds positively, and they have a mutually satisfying sexual experience.  

Then the next day, have Laura begin hearing the music but this time we see a totally different version of it -- a brutal rape (which is what she intends to tell Scotty happened if necessary).  

And then have Luke hear the music and we see a third version of it, in which Laura is the primary aggressor and Luke "does her a favor" by obliging her.

After seeing multiple different versions of it, the audience -- most of whom didn't record it on their VCRs -- wouldn't have remembered exactly what really happened between the two of them -- only that they both remember it vividly, are drawing their own conclusions about it, and can't move past it. 

I think it would've made a more complex & interesting story.   

2 minutes ago, Broderick said:

Because he "wanted" her (and he was a smoldering anti-hero), and she was too "good" to have sex with him unless she was forced to.  lol.  

But in hindsight, what they probably should've done is film it several different ways.  They should've given us a genuine seduction to "Rise", in which Luke seduces her, and she responds positively, and they have a mutually satisfying sexual experience.  

Then the next day, have Laura begin hearing the music but this time we see a totally different version of it -- a brutal rape (which is what she intends to tell Scotty happened if necessary).  

And then have Luke hear the music and we see a third version of it, in which Laura is the primary aggressor and Luke "does her a favor" by obliging her.

After seeing multiple different versions of it, the audience -- most of whom didn't record it on their VCRs -- wouldn't have remembered exactly what really happened between the two of them -- only that they both remember it vividly, are drawing their own conclusions about it, and can't move past it. 

I think it would've made a more complex & interesting story.   

No.

28 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

AMC:

Keeping Erica emotionally immature.  By 1980, she needed to have grown up by then. 

I feel like TPTB recognized as much by the late '80's, especially when Erica finally gave birth to Bianca.  No longer could Erica just up and do whatever she wanted; now she had a daughter to think about.  And even though introducing Eric Kane as a circus clown was not one of Margaret DePriest's best decisions, that storyline did, for a time, lay to rest issues Erica had had with him abandoning her and Mona when Erica was nine years old.

Unfortunately, when Agnes Nixon returned as HW in '89, it seems like a lot of that was undone.  Eric skipped town again (and IIRC, sold his Enchantment shares to Natalie on his way out); Travis, who had already taken some hits as a character due to very foolish decisions on his part, became insufferable over Jack and Erica's affair (to the point where I was glad to see him gone); and Erica eventually lost custody of Bianca to her ex (who was back happily ever after with Barbara - a real slap in Erica and Tom's faces, if you ask me), who moved his entire family to Seattle, forcing Erica to deal with the pain of having another loved one taken from her.

12 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

As for Kay Alden, I just have one word: SPERMGATE.

YES.

40 minutes ago, Jdee43 said:

Why did they have Luke rape Laura? Was it just a genre convention; that's how strong men dealt with strong women in these stories?

You have to remember, @Jdee43, that no one except maybe Gloria Monty intended for Tony Geary to stay with the show.  IIRC, the original plan, as designed by (I think) Douglas Marland, or maybe Pat Falken Smith, was for Frank Smith's goons to kill Luke.  So, if you look at it from that perspective, Laura's rape would've driven a wedge between her and Scotty - which it did, but if things had gone according to plan, then it wouldn't have ended with Luke and Laura going on the run and falling in love.

Edited November 19, 20241 yr by Khan

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

I feel like TPTB recognized as much by the late '80's, especially when Erica finally gave birth to Bianca.  No longer could Erica just up and do whatever she wanted; now she had a daughter to think about.  And even though introducing Eric Kane as a circus clown was not one of Margaret DePriest's best decisions, that storyline did, for a time, lay to rest issues Erica had had with him abandoning her and Mona when Erica was nine years old.

Unfortunately, when Agnes Nixon returned as HW in '89, it seems like a lot of that was undone.  Eric skipped town again (and IIRC, sold his Enchantment shares to Natalie on his way out); Travis, who had already taken some hits as a character due to very foolish decisions on his part, became insufferable over Jack and Erica's affair (to the point where I was glad to see him gone); and Erica eventually lost custody of Bianca to her ex (who was back happily ever after with Barbara - a real slap in Erica and Tom's faces, if you ask me), who moved his entire family to Seattle, forcing Erica to deal with the pain of having another loved one taken from her.

YES.

This seemed to happen again and again with Erica. When Nixon became more involved in the show again Erica lost her beauty and had to wear a mask, which I just thought was kind of hilarious rather than making me feel emotionally invested. And of course Erica ended her run on the show planning to conquer Hollywood...in her 60s. The general fear of ever allowing Erica to age made for any number of painful choices, including her feuding with women 30 years her junior.

Another Nixon choice that led to diminishing returns was trying to recreate Greg and Jenny over and over...and trying to recreate a class system that just felt very dated and false by the last attempt (with Scott and Becca - although I know they tried one last time on the revival with wretched RSW and that girl who lived with Francesca James).

But at least it gave us Greenlee, the butchest homophobe ever on soaps. Yay.

2 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Totally agree with this but there's one slight problem. Douglas Marland ONLY left because someone decided to call the rape a "seduction" so if they had not done that & fixed it some other way, he would still be there with PFS second chair. 

Just imagine how great that would have been!

 

1 hour ago, John said:

NOPE. Luke raped Laura. Period. End of story. They messed up when they tried to romanticize it. 

Agreed. Luke raped Laura. It was wrong. 

They should have never wrote that in the plot to begin with. But since they did, the only answer was to acknowledge that the rape happened, and after working through things Laura decided to forgive Luke. Simplest way. 

Any attempt to try to reframe it as a seduction, or retcon history is wrong.

When exactly did they start trying to call it a seduction? From scenes I've watched it was always acknowledged as a rape. Does anyone have a scene they can share?

37 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

Thinking of other bad moves by well regarded writers/EP’s I haven’t seen mentioned yet but also came to mind…

Re: Bell at Y&R. I’ll start here with a couple more of his misses not yet mentioned…

-Overkill of too much Cricket, especially 1988-91 or so.

-Blade/Rick story being the answer to Marlena’s possession. 

-The Audrey North that went south. Seriously still befuddles me to this day like what was the point?

As for Kay Alden, I just have one word: SPERMGATE.

 

Interesting, I never thought of Rick/Blade as the andwer to posessed Marlena. I'm more think of Vicki's DID and her acting evil and out of character was a more direct comparison.  1995, what a year for divas going off the edge! Erica Kane on drugs, Marlena possessed, Viki had DID!

As demeaning as sperm gate was for the leading women of Y&R it was well crafted. It spanned from 1999-2004, soaps today cannot write long-term overarching plots effectively. And the trigger for the whole thing was Victor divorcing Diane to be with Nikki after the Veronica shooting. Amazing.

Edited November 19, 20241 yr by Planet Soap

2 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

This seemed to happen again and again with Erica. When Nixon became more involved in the show again Erica lost her beauty and had to wear a mask, which I just thought was kind of hilarious rather than making me feel emotionally invested. And of course Erica ended her run on the show planning to conquer Hollywood...in her 60s. The general fear of ever allowing Erica to age made for any number of painful choices, including her feuding with women 30 years her junior.

It wasn't just a general fear of allowing Erica to mature, though.  As a writer, Agnes Nixon believed that when a character achieves what they want - in Erica's case, not just celebrity, but the (misguided) belief that celebrity would bring her the security she had lacked as a child - there's no more story left for them.  In Nixon's mind, Erica's desperate need to prove to her father (and to herself) that she was worthy of his affections never goes away, or else what is she?

So, as ridiculous as it was for Erica to try once more to conquer Hollywood at her age, it also kinda made sense.  AMC was ending (or so we thought), so Erica's quest to be a star in the one arena Eric seemed to care about most (the movies) needed to come to an end as well.

Of course, I'd argue that Eric's death was absolutely the moment when Erica needed to put all those demons to rest once and for all and not years later, but that's just me, lol.

By the end of the ABC run, Erica just felt so irrelevant and watered down. You still saw her, but she lacked purpose for much of that final decade to me. 

4 minutes ago, Khan said:

So, as ridiculous as it was for Erica to try once more to conquer Hollywood at her age, it also kinda made sense.  AMC was ending (or so we thought), so Erica's quest to be a star in the one arena Eric seemed to care about most (the movies) needed to come to an end as well.

That makes sense. I wish Erica had left a decade earlier (or the show had ended a decade earlier) so it wouldn't have felt so depleted.

Just now, BetterForgotten said:

By the end of the ABC run, Erica just felt so irrelevant and watered down. You still saw her, but she lacked purpose for much of that final decade to me. 

Clearly we weren't big fans of Erica's lost/last decade...

1 minute ago, Planet Soap said:

Erica Kane on drugs

Now THAT was a bad move on AMC's part, lol!  Not just because the subject matter was too dark and heavy for a character like Erica (and actor like Susan Lucci), but in order for that storyline to have been truly effective, Erica would've needed to deal not only with her addiction but also with the long-standing issues that led to the addiction; which, in turn, would have forced Erica to mature in ways TPTB clearly didn't want.  But, at least I finally heard her admit that her father didn't give a [!@#$%^&*] about her - even if she was high as a [!@#$%^&*] kite and even if I knew that they'd never have her really reassess her life and question whether remaining as the world's shortest supermodel and cosmetics magnate truly makes her happy.

3 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

By the end of the ABC run, Erica just felt so irrelevant and watered down. You still saw her, but she lacked purpose for much of that final decade to me. 

 

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

That makes sense. I wish Erica had left a decade earlier (or the show had ended a decade earlier) so it wouldn't have felt so depleted.

Clearly we weren't big fans of Erica's lost/last decade...

For me, the biggest problem was watching Erica keep getting saddled with (IMO) really boring partners just to prove she still had it at her age (not to mention, the endless obsession with Jack, a relationship I will never understand).  Like, it's one thing for a grandmother to keep up her bed-hopping, but how can you ask longtime fans to go from someone like Tom Cudahy to someone like Ryan Lavery, lol?

I do think Erica was largely just coasting or somewhat removed from key story for too much of the last decade. But I'd never have cut her. (As opposed to AMC 2.0, where the reset allowed the opportunity for a change.)

Edited November 19, 20241 yr by Vee

7 minutes ago, Khan said:

For me, the biggest problem was watching Erica keep getting saddled with (IMO) really boring partners just to prove she still had it at her age (not to mention, the endless obsession with Jack, a relationship I will never understand).  Like, it's one thing for a grandmother to keep up her bed-hopping, but how can you ask longtime fans to go from someone like Tom Cudahy to someone like Ryan Lavery, lol?

I forgot about that. I don't believe Erica would have gone there (among other reasons because he was boring and likely bad in bed).

Then by the end they had Michael Nouri, which would have made much more sense twenty years earlier.

I remember the truly bizarre rumors Michael Nouri was going to be the supposedly dead kingpin Manuel Santi on OLTL in 2004, again supposedly opposite Viki. Never happened. I always did want to see him on daytime, but by the time he showed up as Caleb Cortlandt he was, as others have said, just another in the rotating series of notches on Erica's bedpost where they would stuntcast someone they knew wouldn't succeed before inevitably moving her back to Jack. It was a waste of talent.