12 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Bill Bell did not kill cassie. I think it was another bone headed Jack Smith story-see Katherine/Jill mother/daughter and the Sheila/Phyllis fiasco.

I was so not a fan of the Katherine/Jill mother/daughter story, BUT I would argue that the undoing of it was somehow actually even worse. By that point, a few years had gone by, and I had sort of gotten used to the new dynamic.

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

I would give a thumbs down to Bill Bell's return of Carl William's story.

Suddenly, it was revealed that Carl had mysteriously disappeared, when there was not an inkling of that onscreen. Sure we hadn't seen him, but it was assumed he was still around. It didn't matter much in the story as Mary was just there as a supporting character.

And this wasn't 20 years ago we last saw Carl-more like 6 or so. 

Then we find out Carl has amnesia and a new life with another woman. Cue much trauma and heartache, until there wasn't. Carl went on with his new life and Mary went back to interfering mama.

No mention of Carl again.

What would have worked better, had Carl returned to the canvas and it was revealed that he took himself off to a country cabin for short trips. Paul could acknowledge that his Dad needed that break from a mundane life with an increasingly naggy Mary.

Then we find out he has met another woman out of town and they live together when he goes on those trips.

This could all be revealed and the various viewpoints examined.

Far more realistic than the hoary old amnesia angle.

ITA that would have been a MUCH better story idea and would have been interesting to explore. The oddest thing was that Carl's "disappearance" never happened onscreen, so it was like...WTH are these people even talking about? Plus, there were zero ramifications from the story. It seemed like that were trying to bring the Williams family back in a greater capacity. Around the same time, Mary gets a hang up call which is implied to be Patty. But, all of it was dropped. The only bright spot was it gave the actress who played Mary to have something meaty to do if only for a little bit.

On 11/19/2024 at 7:58 AM, Khan said:

And I will go to my grave detesting Viki's DID storyline, bravura performances and writing be damned.

 

23 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I love that Robin Strasser constantly brought up that she still beloved and played that Dorian killed Victor, even when the show moved it to Viki. She wasn’t afraid to play a murderer, even when she was not the one playing it.

Yeah.  I watched live in the early years of OLTL when it was just Victoria/Niki and no other alters.  It was explained that she split into herself and Niki while worrying about family dynamics, and trying to live up to expectations, and also Victoria's concerns about Meredith. There was no internet then, and I had no idea that such vague things were unrealistic causes for the split, but that's how it was explained.  
(I realize that nowadays it's more well-known that DID is usually-but-not-always caused by childhood sexual abuse, and not lesser worries.)
The main thing was that Viki wanted Joe and Niki wanted Vinny (Vince).  Then Vince eventually learned that Niki was an alter and not her true self.

Victoria went through therapy and merged with her only alter Niki Smith, and that was it.  Once in a blue moon, after extreme stress, Niki would pop out but it was rare and it eventually stopped.

Anyhow, back to my point, I saw Dorian kill Victor Lord, Sr. live on TV.  We the viewers saw this.  It might have been Dorian withholding medical care, but it amounted to intentional homicide.

Victor Lord, Sr. was an arrogant controlling man but I didn't perceive of him as capable of being a child abuser.   He was very high society. 

And after he died, we the live viewers learned that he had long ago had sex with a young woman or teen friend of Victoria's, hence the conception of Tina.   That was a bit startling but believable.  Tina was such a dynamic character.

I didn't watch the soaps for many years, and was stunned to later learn that OLTL had retconned everything -- so that Victor Lord had sexually abused Victoria, that she now had many alters, and that Victoria had killed her father.  I didn't have TV when I learned this was happening on OLTL, so I didn't see any of that storyline, but I was stunned to hear of it. 
That huge retcon contradicted what I'd seen Dorian do on live TV.

 

(edited to fix my spelling)

Edited November 20, 20241 yr by janea4old

I'll echo everyone else and agree that Niki Smith became a cartoon after the '95 DID story.  And as I've said before, you know you're a hack when you've committed character assassination on a split personality.

On 11/18/2024 at 10:02 PM, Vee said:

I always did want to see him on daytime, but by the time he showed up as Caleb Cortlandt he was, as others have said, just another in the rotating series of notches on Erica's bedpost where they would stuntcast someone they knew wouldn't succeed before inevitably moving her back to Jack. It was a waste of talent.

The same could be said for Jack Scalia.  I still can't believe how AMC screwed THAT up.

34 minutes ago, Khan said:

I'll echo everyone else and agree that Niki Smith became a cartoon after the '95 DID story.  And as I've said before, you know you're a hack when you've committed character assassination on a split personality.

I remember people actively theorizing that "Niki" in the '02 story was actually Tori in disguise on USENET 20 years ago. That's how rough it got.

I didn't mind the strangely poignant scenes where a much more benign Niki helped Tess give birth to her stillborn child in '08, but the fact remains the entire Tess saga should never have happened nor should the alters have returned after '95.

35 minutes ago, Khan said:

The same could be said for Jack Scalia.  I still can't believe how AMC screwed THAT up.

I still remember his mortifying exit during what was something of AMC's nadir to me - the bizarre, brief and highly Fronsified Rayfield/Cascio era in 2003(?) where they literally dragged poor Jack Scalia out to some Miller's Crossing-ass barren woods somewhere just outside the city, where he got got in a very cheap looking location shoot to the strains of an overwrought Moby song that had already been highly overplayed in film and TV by then. I still don't think AMC was ever worse than that regime because it was so clearly the new network honcho putting his big fat thumb all over the show in an unrecognizable way I have never seen before or since.

7 minutes ago, Vee said:

I still remember his mortifying exit during what was something of AMC's nadir to me - the bizarre, brief and highly Fronsified Rayfield/Cascio era in 2003(?) where they literally dragged poor Jack Scalia out to some Miller's Crossing-ass barren woods somewhere just outside the city, where he got got in a very cheap looking location shoot to the strains of an overwrought Moby song that had already been highly overplayed in film and TV by then. I still don't think AMC was ever worse than that regime because it was so clearly the new network honcho putting his big fat thumb all over the show in an unrecognizable way I have never seen before or since.

Unbelievable how much I love "Fronsified" but even worse than McTavish's Unabortion tenure? That's really saying something but credible given Frons being the way he was. 
 

1 hour ago, janea4old said:

 

Yeah.  I watched live in the early years of OLTL when it was just Victoria/Niki and no other alters.  It was explained that she split into herself and Niki while worrying about family dynamics, and trying to live up to expectations, and also Victoria's concerns about Meredith. There was no internet then, and I had no idea that such vague things were unrealistic causes for the split, but that's how it was explained.  
(I realize that nowadays it's more well-known that DID is usually-but-not-always caused by childhood sexual abuse, and not lesser worries.)
The main thing was that Viki wanted Joe and Niki wanted Vinny (Vince).  Then Vince eventually learned that Niki was an alter and not her true self.

Victoria went through therapy and merged with her only alter Niki Smith, and that was it.  Once in a blue moon, after extreme stress, Niki would pop out but it was rare and it eventually stopped.

Anyhow, back to my point, I saw Dorian kill Victor Lord, Sr. live on TV.  We the viewers saw this.  It might have been Dorian withholding medical care, but it amounted to intentional homicide.

Victor Lord, Sr. was an arrogant controlling man but I didn't perceive of him as capable of being a child abuser.   He was very high society. 

And after he died, we the live viewers learned that he had long ago had sex with a young woman or teen friend of Victoria's, hence the conception of Tina.   That was a bit startling but believable.  Tina was such a dynamic character.

I didn't watch the soaps for many years, and was stunned to later learn that OLTL had retconned everything -- so that Victor Lord had sexually abused Victoria, that she now had many alters, and that Victoria had killed her father.  I didn't have TV when I learned this was happening on OLTL, so I didn't see any of that storyline, but I was stunned to hear of it. 
That huge retcon contradicted what I'd seen Dorian do on live TV.

 

(edited to fix my spelling)

I envy you... I would give anything to see the first 20 years of OLTL

Jeanne Cooper always said that Bill Bell regretted killing off Phillip Chancellor II. I'm not sure I agree because even in death, he generated years of good stories for Kay and Jill. I do think it was mistake to kill off Phillip III and especially Rex. Kay and Rex were a great double act and his shady past could have created so many more stories for both of them. Rex's absence also didn't help in keeping Gina relevant. After Rex's death, Kay basically did nothing until the will in the attic storyline.

4 minutes ago, Alan said:

Jeanne Cooper always said that Bill Bell regretted killing off Phillip Chancellor II. I'm not sure I agree because even in death, he generated years of good stories for Kay and Jill. I do think it was mistake to kill off Phillip III and especially Rex. Kay and Rex were a great double act and his shady past could have created so many more stories for both of them. Rex's absence also didn't help in keeping Gina relevant. After Rex's death, Kay basically did nothing until the will in the attic storyline.

Rex's death would have made more sense to me if it had produced strong story for Jill and for Katherine, but it did not. Katherine had scraps for years, and if Bill had remained fully in control of the show, I wonder how much longer she would have lasted given how comfortable Jeanne was blasting the show to the press.

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Katherine had scraps for years, and if Bill had remained fully in control of the show, I wonder how much longer she would have lasted given how comfortable Jeanne was blasting the show to the press.

I remember JC ranting to the soap press when Nick/Sharon were eating the show, saying that the show was now "The Young and the Rest of Us".

11 hours ago, janea4old said:

Yeah.  I watched live in the early years of OLTL when it was just Victoria/Niki and no other alters.  It was explained that she split into herself and Niki while worrying about family dynamics, and trying to live up to expectations, and also Victoria's concerns about Meredith. There was no internet then, and I had no idea that such vague things were unrealistic causes for the split, but that's how it was explained.  

(I realize that nowadays it's more well-known that DID is usually-but-not-always caused by childhood sexual abuse, and not lesser worries.)
The main thing was that Viki wanted Joe and Niki wanted Vinny (Vince).  Then Vince eventually learned that Niki was an alter and not her true self.

Victoria went through therapy and merged with her only alter Niki Smith, and that was it.  Once in a blue moon, after extreme stress, Niki would pop out but it was rare and it eventually stopped.

Anyhow, back to my point, I saw Dorian kill Victor Lord, Sr. live on TV.  We the viewers saw this.  It might have been Dorian withholding medical care, but it amounted to intentional homicide.

Victor Lord, Sr. was an arrogant controlling man but I didn't perceive of him as capable of being a child abuser.   He was very high society. 

And after he died, we the live viewers learned that he had long ago had sex with a young woman or teen friend of Victoria's, hence the conception of Tina.   That was a bit startling but believable.  Tina was such a dynamic character.

I didn't watch the soaps for many years, and was stunned to later learn that OLTL had retconned everything -- so that Victor Lord had sexually abused Victoria, that she now had many alters, and that Victoria had killed her father.  I didn't have TV when I learned this was happening on OLTL, so I didn't see any of that storyline, but I was stunned to hear of it. 
That huge retcon contradicted what I'd seen Dorian do on live TV.

I think Malone was a good writer (in his first run) and I enjoyed the '95 DID story. I get that the writers wanted to make the origin of Viki's disease more medically accurate. I agree however, with your frustration about the destruction of Victor Lord Sr, and the retcon of Dorian's role in his murder. What was even more stupid was Victor being alive in 2003. Did Maline write that? Then the seed of doubt in 2008 with Dorian questioning if that was Victor in '03? How many times can you rewrite history.

11 hours ago, Khan said:

I'll echo everyone else and agree that Niki Smith became a cartoon after the '95 DID story.  And as I've said before, you know you're a hack when you've committed character assassination on a split personality.

Agreed. Nikki pushing Ben out of a window and gaslighting Natalie was dumb.

8 hours ago, Alan said:

Jeanne Cooper always said that Bill Bell regretted killing off Phillip Chancellor II. I'm not sure I agree because even in death, he generated years of good stories for Kay and Jill. I do think it was mistake to kill off Phillip III and especially Rex. Kay and Rex were a great double act and his shady past could have created so many more stories for both of them. Rex's absence also didn't help in keeping Gina relevant. After Rex's death, Kay basically did nothing until the will in the attic storyline.

Agreed. Killing Rex was dumb. I never understood why Kate kept pining after Philip with little mention of Rex, even though Rex's significantly better husband.

Speaking of the questionable racial dynamics between Jill and Mamie, I think this is the latest clip I've ever seen of Marguerite Ray. I presume this is when John had yet another medical episode, This time from Victor taking over his company. 

 

Edited November 21, 20241 yr by Planet Soap

I have this note on JFP, saying that there of course hundreds of things she's done wrong but 3 that she's done right. 1 is Zaslow. 2 is Jess Walton. What is 3? Oh, I know. 3 is that there was someone involved in Frankie's murder but that she wasn't going to name names. Then. on the Locher room she said, "It wasn't me, it was the writers." so there went 3. Left with only 2. Okay, I tried my best. 

On 11/20/2024 at 11:23 AM, Vee said:

I remember people actively theorizing that "Niki" in the '02 story was actually Tori in disguise on USENET 20 years ago. That's how rough it got.

LOL!!

13 hours ago, Planet Soap said:

Nikki pushing Ben out of a window and gaslighting Natalie was dumb.

Was it?  Because, from where I'm sitting, I think Niki Smith did us all a tremendous favor by pushing Derwood out that window.

Maybe not exactly the biggest mistake, but I thought making Rex and Cassie a product of Roman and Kate on DAYS was a huge mistake, especially for Cassie since she suddenly was related to all males in her age group. I always thought Cassie had potential to be a long-running character, at least with Alexis Thorpe in the part. 

 

Oops, missed the well-regarded part lol 

Edited November 21, 20241 yr by te.

On 11/17/2024 at 4:32 PM, Soapsuds said:

Douglas Marland changed his mind midstory and did not make Darryl the killer in Caroline's murder on As the World Turns.

I wonder if that was because he was afraid of repeating the Douglas Cummings storyline with Frannie.  She was supposed to be this intelligent, level-headed young woman; yet, she kept falling for dirtbags and psychos.  On the one hand, that could be fascinating to explore, but on the other hand, it might make the girl look like a moron.

For sure, however, I definitely think the story was supposed to end originally with Frannie pushing Darryl to his death out of that ski lift thing that they went on location to shoot in.

9 minutes ago, te. said:

Oops, missed the well-regarded part lol 

Weren't Paula Cwikly and Peter Brash responsible for retconning Rex and Cassie as Roman and Kate's children?  If so, I'd say they were well-regarded, at least by DAYS fans.

Edited November 21, 20241 yr by Khan

I thought Higley retconned them into being Roman and Kate's. I could be wrong.