33 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

The show just wasn't willing to be that honest about what a predator and emotional parasite Sonny is and to do any real work on breaking down the Sonny/Jason relationship, which by that point was well past any point of interest anyway. 

I also thought the conflict was interesting but it didn't last. Ironically I think Sonny and Jason broke from each other even further later IIRC, in the Zacchara years perhaps, which is when Guza seemed to sour on Sonny for a time and when the writing began to openly critique Sonny and Carly's parenting. The problem is they put the critique in the mouth of Jason a lot of the time, who was just as guilty. And I don't remember Sonny and Jason ever being in open mob conflict, though I could swear Jason at one point had control of the business over him.

It sometimes makes me wonder if at one point Guza had intended for Dante to really take Sonny down/be his undoing, leaving Jason in the prime position.

26 minutes ago, Vee said:

It sometimes makes me wonder if at one point Guza had intended for Dante to really take Sonny down/be his undoing, leaving Jason in the prime position.

I think some of us at the time were speculating on that, especially when Sonny shot Dante...but then someone (Frons I assume) chickened out, as per usual.

Someone who has watched the last decade much more closely than I have could write a good paper on how the show has changed - for better or worse - due to the vacuum caused by Steve Burton's absences and dismantling of the inevitable (Sonny being put out to pasture and Jason and the various loves of his life being in the main spotlight).

22 minutes ago, Vee said:

I also thought the conflict was interesting but it didn't last. Ironically I think Sonny and Jason broke from each other even further later IIRC, in the Zacchara years perhaps, which is when Guza seemed to sour on Sonny for a time and when the writing began to openly critique Sonny and Carly's parenting. The problem is they put the critique in the mouth of Jason a lot of the time, who was just as guilty. And I don't remember Sonny and Jason ever being in open mob conflict, though I could swear Jason at one point had control of the business over him.

It sometimes makes me wonder if at one point Guza had intended for Dante to really take Sonny down/be his undoing, leaving Jason in the prime position.

Jason took over after Michael was shot and Sonny decided to leave the mob.  Sonny then wanted to come back and Jason told him no leading to Sonny marrying Claudia to gain more power.  So, it was during those years.  

I wouldn't be surprised if Guza did want Dante to take Sonny down and position Jason as the main mob lead and Dante as the secondary lead moving Sonny into a supporting role. 

21 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Jason took over after Michael was shot and Sonny decided to leave the mob.  Sonny then wanted to come back and Jason told him no leading to Sonny marrying Claudia to gain more power.  So, it was during those years.  

I wouldn't be surprised if Guza did want Dante to take Sonny down and position Jason as the main mob lead and Dante as the secondary lead moving Sonny into a supporting role. 

Which would've been better for the show, minus more Jason of course.

I do remember the whole thing with Jason refusing him which caught my interest at the time as a lapsed/casual viewer at best, but it is beyond me how this did not lead to open warfare.

22 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Someone who has watched the last decade much more closely than I have could write a good paper on how the show has changed - for better or worse - due to the vacuum caused by Steve Burton's absences and dismantling of the inevitable (Sonny being put out to pasture and Jason and the various loves of his life being in the main spotlight).

It can't be denied that, again for better or worse, Frank and Ron broke the back of the mob focus when they came in. There was (and remains) a considerable pushback in 2014-2015 and onward to doing more mob again, but nothing about any mob story since has ever been the same. They all feel like shadowboxing, unless they feature more outsize characters like Ava.

2 minutes ago, Vee said:

Which would've been better for the show, minus more Jason of course.

I do remember the whole thing with Jason refusing him which caught my interest at the time as a lapsed/casual viewer at best, but it is beyond me how this did not lead to open warfare.

IIRC, Sonny was going to end up facing jail time or something and Jason backed off.   It was silly, but I think it just amounted to Jason doing the "right" thing and carrying on the narrative that Jason is the glue that holds Sonny/Carly/the family together. 

Dante as a lead is such a fantastic idea for me.  Sonny would still be involved, but passing on the torch.  I don't know how I feel about Lulu being the leading lady with him (at the time), but it would be fitting for Luke/Laura's daughter to be in that position especially since Lucky's been a difficult role to keep on the show.   

9 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Dante as a lead is such a fantastic idea for me.  Sonny would still be involved, but passing on the torch.  I don't know how I feel about Lulu being the leading lady with him (at the time), but it would be fitting for Luke/Laura's daughter to be in that position especially since Lucky's been a difficult role to keep on the show.   

As I've said far too many times it's what needed to happen with Dante and Lucky as the new Luke and Scorpio in 2009-10, and they shít on the golden goose. It was ready made, Dominic and Jonathan were perfect.

Lulu I can take or leave lol. I think the best way forward is to lean in towards that adventuring journalist thing they had set up with a very strong actress, be it Marci Miller or whoever. I don't think Julie Berman's Lulu had a persona beyond smug and damaged in various ways benefitting the plot, and I think you'd need to reinvent her from the ground up. Her relationship with her mother would also need to be profoundly different from the very dysfunctional relationship with Luke, and her bond with Tracy which while nice didn't honor Laura enough IMO. In those years they were painting Laura in absentia as the fragile princess who couldn't take life with the Spencers and was a sad afterthought for the family. Actually, the Tracy/Laura dynamic re: Lulu could be very interesting whenever she returns if they play that history.

6 minutes ago, Vee said:

As I've said far too many times it's what needed to happen with Dante and Lucky as the new Luke and Scorpio in 2009-10, and they shít on the golden goose. It was ready made, Dominic and Jonathan were perfect.

Lulu I can take or leave lol. I think the best way forward is to lean in towards that adventuring journalist thing they had set up with a very strong actress, be it Marci Miller or whoever. I don't think Julie Berman's Lulu had a persona beyond smug and damaged in various ways benefitting the plot, and I think you'd need to reinvent her from the ground up. Her relationship with her mother would also need to be profoundly different from the very dysfunctional relationship with Luke, and her bond with Tracy which while nice didn't honor Laura enough IMO. In those years they were painting Laura in absentia as the fragile princess who couldn't take life with the Spencers and was a sad afterthought for the family. Actually, the Tracy/Laura dynamic re: Lulu could be very interesting whenever she returns if they play that history.

I really have never liked Lulu either.  She was so smug and JMB was Carly #2 before Joss.  The only time I liked JMB's Lulu was when she was with Dante, but I also felt her entire personality revolved around Dante and Dante's interests.  Emme Rylan never really felt like Lulu to me.    I am very hesitant to be on board with Marci Miller as I generally couldn't stand her on Days, but I do think Lulu is an easy character to start fairly fresh with since I don't have a clear idea of what her personality is.  It's criminal neither of Luke/Laura's children are on the canvas.

I think the show [!@#$%^&*] the bed with anything involving Lulu, Nik or Lucky after JJ's first departure. I'm not sure entirely why - the contempt Guza had for Laura and L&L, the contempt Tony Geary had for L&L and for Luke being a father, the horrible writing for women, the disdain the show had for any Lucky not played by JJ (and then upon his return completely forgetting what made JJ popular in the role), Tyler Christopher's many personal problems and how checked out he was of the part after returning in 2003, JMB being just plain unlikeable onscreen and having no chemistry with men...

At this point, even though I doubt Chavez will stay on much longer (if GH stays on much longer that is), focusing story on Spencer and the other kids of Lucky and Lulu might not be a bad idea, and center Laura as a reliable part of their lives. 

40 minutes ago, Vee said:

Lulu I can take or leave lol. I think the best way forward is to lean in towards that adventuring journalist thing they had set up with a very strong actress, be it Marci Miller or whoever. I don't think Julie Berman's Lulu had a persona beyond smug and damaged in various ways benefitting the plot, and I think you'd need to reinvent her from the ground up. Her relationship with her mother would also need to be profoundly different from the very dysfunctional relationship with Luke, and her bond with Tracy which while nice didn't honor Laura enough IMO. In those years they were painting Laura in absentia as the fragile princess who couldn't take life with the Spencers and was a sad afterthought for the family. Actually, the Tracy/Laura dynamic re: Lulu could be very interesting whenever she returns if they play that history.

The problem with changing from Julie Marie Berman to Emme Rylan is Ron Carlivati had a blank canvas to possibly work it... and instead, between the writer and the subsequent regimes, they pulled the Spencer out of Lulu and made her a complete wallpaper-paste of a person. There were no layers to her. She was about Dante & Rocco, and that felt about it. With Marci Miller in the role, I could buy Lulu re-evolving into a Spencer, and I do believe Miller would have magical chemistry with Dominic Zamprogna, Genie Francis and others, et al. I've always seen Miller as Lulu since her return as Abigail in 2020. But, regardless of who is in the role, Lulu needs to be multi-dimensional again. She can be the investigative journalist, but she needs to have intent in that role.

34 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I really have never liked Lulu either.  She was so smug and JMB was Carly #2 before Joss.  The only time I liked JMB's Lulu was when she was with Dante, but I also felt her entire personality revolved around Dante and Dante's interests.  Emme Rylan never really felt like Lulu to me.    I am very hesitant to be on board with Marci Miller as I generally couldn't stand her on Days, but I do think Lulu is an easy character to start fairly fresh with since I don't have a clear idea of what her personality is.  It's criminal neither of Luke/Laura's children are on the canvas.

Oh see, I think Miller could do wonders with the role of Lulu. A reset for the character. With Nikolas off-canvas it is the genuine way to re-introduce Lulu and/or Lucky.

I won't support any Lulu return unless the show and the audience agree to stop calling her "Lulu."
 

Just now, Liberty City said:

The problem with changing from Julie Marie Berman to Emme Rylan is Ron Carlivati had a blank canvas to possibly work it... and instead, between the writer and the subsequent regimes, they pulled the Spencer out of Lulu and made her a complete wallpaper-paste of a person.

What he was trying to do early on with Rylan's Lulu, very clearly, was redo his dreadful "Teen Jessica" storyline from OLTL. Both women were mentally and physically traumatized by a supervillain's deranged medical procedure (Jessica got ECT from Mitch Laurence, Lulu was frozen in cryogenic stasis by Stavros). Both woke with a 'clean slate' lacking a huge swath of their memory, and both rebelled against their former lives by shacking up with hunky men who were not their current popular love interests. Where Jessica became fixated on Cristian, her high school boyfriend, Lulu randomly moved in with... Magic Milo, a poor non-actor with a hard body who Ron and Frank were deeply enamored of. It was an awful storyline, but at GH fortunately viewer response nipped it in the bud and ended it pretty quickly. After that he had zero interest in Lulu whatsoever. As you said, she became a brood mare and a mom, little to nothing else, and stayed that way until Rylan exited.

But, regardless of who is in the role, Lulu needs to be multi-dimensional again. She can be the investigative journalist, but she needs to have intent in that role.

I think they just need to lean her in to her family's adventurous roots, lean into her ties to Crimson/Deception as well maybe and let the story and romances follow. Maybe she takes over Crimson and becomes its roving editor-star reporter a la Brenda Starr, broadening its scope (a la Teen Vogue) to big adventure-ready stories.

As for romance if it's Dante, great. If not, someone else. I think DZ would be good with a variety of people but for the immediate term I would play him with BLQ and maybe a potential triangle with fellow WSB agent Annie Donely (recast, since influencer Caitlin Reilly will not be signing with this soap lol). Lulu you don't bring back until there is a firm plan, because they never really had much of one with either adult Lulu IMO. They just loved Julie Berman and let it ride by putting her with people they liked - they turned her into a LW clone because they wanted the audience to know the new SORASed Lulu had Carly's seal of approval, then they had her tried with every hot new man until Dante. Berman's personality and monologues about her broken family carried the day in between. That's not a character to me, or if it is one I just never found it very appealing.

1 minute ago, Khan said:

I won't support any Lulu return unless the show and the audience agree to stop calling her "Lulu."

God I wish, but it's too late! I used to chafe on their calling the toddler that.

2 minutes ago, Liberty City said:

The problem with changing from Julie Marie Berman to Emme Rylan is Ron Carlivati had a blank canvas to possibly work it... and instead, between the writer and the subsequent regimes, they pulled the Spencer out of Lulu and made her a complete wallpaper-paste of a person. There were no layers to her. She was about Dante & Rocco, and that felt about it. With Marci Miller in the role, I could buy Lulu re-evolving into a Spencer, and I do believe Miller would have magical chemistry with Dominic Zamprogna, Genie Francis and others, et al. I've always seen Miller as Lulu since her return as Abigail in 2020. But, regardless of who is in the role, Lulu needs to be multi-dimensional again. She can be the investigative journalist, but she needs to have intent in that role.

Oh see, I think Miller could do wonders with the role of Lulu. A reset for the character. With Nikolas off-canvas it is the genuine way to re-introduce Lulu and/or Lucky.

I think Marci Miller is a bit polarizing for people.  People that like her really like her and people that don't really dislike her.  I have never seen someone neutral on her.  I find her dull and boring with horrible prairie dresses lol.  Perhaps she would excel in a different role, but I don't get her appeal at all.  All I can say is that she looks right for the part and I do think she can act.  The fire, spirit, and adventurousness I would want from Lulu does not feel like anything MM has shown me on Days.   That being said, I would be willing to give her a shot as Lulu. 

I think she's very talented and I'd be open to it. Whether she has the spark for a Lulu, I agree it's hard to see.

Emme Rylan set a very low bar with each soap role she took on, lol.

1 minute ago, Khan said:

Emme Rylan set a very low bar with each soap role she took on, lol.

I liked her as Lizzie on GL! And I thought the recast on GH wasn't a bad idea at first; I thought she turned in a good performance in the custody story vs. Maxie over Georgie II. But it became clear she had about two speeds and that was it.