NBC Daytime

[TVFAN1144]

No doubt the 90 minute expansion sent things downhill.  Putting Texas against the formidable General Hospital was risky and then moving it to the morning 

 

Although I think I liked some of the show. Talented and experienced cast 

[1974mdp]

Did we ever find out what the hell the red swam was about? I remember all the Corys just looking at it all the time and talking about what it could mean. Did they eventually just kind of drop it sort of how they did the music box Katherine left for Jill on Y&R?

It's interesting to note that within the 18-49 demo ratings AW did move up to the middle of the pack there for a while in the mid-90s. I liked a lot of what JFP did initially. The shows look became more modern, stories moved faster, and I even enjoyed the whole John and Felicia affair not because of any chemistry the two actors had, which I thought was lacking, but because of how it impacted so many different characters and forced people to take sides. And, it, of course, gave Sharlene that Emmy-winning material to play.

[j swift]

The Red Swan held a secret compartment with a codicil to Mac's will stating that he fathered Paulina, thus giving her inheritance rights.  Ken was working with Paulina to get the statue in order to prove her claim, once Rachel found out that this is why Ken began their romance, she kicked him to the curb.

Edited July 31, 2023 by j swift

[Contessa Donatella]

Thanks. I'm just now seeing this. Yes, the Red Swan actually – and I would say surprisingly – had a very important function. It gave legitimacy to Paulina being a Cory. Even thought it wasn't known till after his death, Mac claimed her. Legally it set her up & I thought it did some really nice stuff to her self-confidence & feeling like she belonged. Rachel was more than happy to embrace her 100%. 

Before the reveal I would have sworn that it was going to be a meaningless, ugly piece of paper mache! 

The romance with Ken, I felt, never worked anyway. 

I think it's funny that AW fans say the Red Swan was the worst of these things & Y&R fans say that "reliquary" was definitely the worst & then AMC fans say that "Libidizone" trumps all others. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Donna L. Bridges

[GLATWT88]

I wonder how much of this was aided by DAYS success around that time. DAYS saw a significant ratings jump in 95 and then spent most of 96 and 97 at the top in the 18-49 demo. 

Also to be noted, DAYS and AW are the only two soaps to maintain or gain in ratings from the 1994/5 season through the 1995/6 and 1996/7 season. A trend that was definitely not occurring with the other soaps which saw incredible drops. YR did go up a tenth in the 1995/6 season but then saw a significant drop the next season.  

[1974mdp]

Ahhhh!! Thanks for clarification. 

[watson71]

Every time I saw Ken Jordan on the screen all I thought of was David Thatcher

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[Contessa Donatella]

I just groaned. Yours is worse. Living through the aftermath of Doug's death, ... geeze we were survivors. I was literally afraid they would never find someone to be a scene partner with Victoria!! 

[Paul Raven]

 A (not complete) list of NBC daytime VPs over those  years when NBC were operating a full schedule.

Bob Aaron 61-66 later involved with launching Another Life on CBN

Larry White 66-67

Bud Grant 67-72 head hunted by CBS as daytime VP then promoted to primetime .

Oscar Katz Oct 69  as consultant - ex ABC daytime 

Clare L Simpson Jan 72 - Oct 73

Lin Bolen Oct 73 -  Feb 76 revamped the gameshows, introduced 60 min DOOL and AW

Madeliene David Feb 76 - Nov 77

Nov 77-80 Michael Brockman Nov 77-80

Lucy Johnson 80-83?

Linda line Nov 79? vp serials

Jeff Ryder?

Brian Frons March 83- May89

Jackie Smith May 89 – May 91

John Miller interim

 

 

[Contessa Donatella]

Running some by AI ... 

Brian Frons was the Vice President of NBC Daytime between 1978-1983

Lucy Johnson was the Senior Vice President of Daytime and Children’s Programs for CBS from 1989 to 2003 1. I couldn’t find any information about her being the Vice President of NBC Daytime. Is there anything else I can help you with?

Susan D. Lee was the Vice President of Daytime Programming for NBC from 1981-1983 ¹. Is there anything else I can help you with?

Okay, AI has considerable wrong information. No sense continuing there. Lee is wrong. I don't think those are Frons dates. Lucy might be right for CBS, but, ... 

 

From the We Love Soaps website

https://www.welovesoaps.net/2011/04/brian-frons-as-god.html

Broadcasting career

Senior vice president (London-based SBS Broadcasting, S.A.)

President, Creative Affairs (New World Entertainment)

Vice president, Creative Affairs, NBC Productions

Vice president of NBC Entertainment

Director, Daytime Programming, CBS Entertainment

Creative Consultant of All My Children and One Life to Live

Head Writer (with Frank Valentini) of One Life to Live (November 29, 2004 to December 10, 2004)

Story Consultant of General Hospital

Head Writer (with Julie Hanan Carruthers) of All My Children (mid-January 2008 to January 30, 2008)

Also from We Love Soaps in an interview with Wesley Eure. Nov. 16, 2009 Pt. 2 Eure interview

I knew Fox and NBC were run by gay men at the time, but what was odd about the industry at the time, it was amazing how the gay men were perpetuating the damage. I remember Earl Greenburg — who was a big philanthropist here in Palm Springs, and had the Desert AIDS Project, he did some wonderful work, he's passed away now this last year — but the first time I saw him in Palm Springs, he said, "Didn't I fire you?" He was head of NBC Daytime at the time.

I said, "You're an ass."

[Known forever that it was an NBC exec who was gay who fired him just never before this, was a name said.]

From personal notes: 

Madeline David was head of NBC daytime January 76 till November 77.

In October 79, Orin Tovrov who wrote for The Doctors in its first few years landed a gig as daytime consultant at NBC. 

Jan. 1976 to Nov. 1977 Madeline David head of NBC Daytime

Nov. 1977 Michael Brochman became NBC Daytime Head, replacing Madeline David.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Donna L. Bridges

[Contessa Donatella]

Also from We Love Soaps, full article

FLASHBACK: The Reselling of Daytime Television 1989

The Reselling of Daytime Television `It Isn't All Soap, Hamburger Helper. The Profile of the Advertiser Is Changing, the Profile of the Audience Is Changing.'

By Diane Haitman
Los Angeles Times
August 31, 1989

For the last few years, while the Big Three networks wrung their corporate hands over the dwindling prime-time audience, they seemed blissfully unaware that daytime TV-that predictable, comfortable blend of game shows, talk shows and soap operas on the air between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m.-was losing ground even faster.

Compared with prime time, daytime's audience has shrunk less rapidly-dropping only 6% to prime-time's 9% since 1984.

But daytime has been getting hit where it hurts-in the network pocketbook.

In prime time, the networks grumble merely that advertising revenues aren't climbing at the rate they used to. In daytime, however, the networks' combined yearly advertising revenues have plummeted from $1.5 billion to $1.3 billion since 1984.

Although the networks haven't concocted any solutions yet, they've at least begun admitting that when $200 million is missing, it's time to figure out where it went.

"The reselling of this part of the day is going on at all the networks," said Michael Brockman, ABC's president of daytime, children's and late-night entertainment. "The networks are beginning to realize that they have sort of taken for granted this `daypart,' and it has become imperative for us to bring to focus . . . that this is still a very vital and alive and powerful part of the day."

Lucy Johnson, CBS' vice president of daytime programs, described the networks' current state of concern over daytime as being "not in a panic, but not complacent either."

That's evident in the recent game of musical chairs in the networks' executive suites.

The latest plot twists in "As the Daytime Executives Turn": Johnson, who served as NBC's vice president of daytime and children's television from 1978-81, was hired at CBS last spring, returning to daytime television following a stint as a studio executive at Lorimar and several years in independent production. She accepted the position at CBS, she said, because she was eager to work once more with Brockman, who was then CBS' vice president of daytime, children's and late night programming.

Just before Johnson got to CBS, however, Brockman left. In April, ABC split its entertainment division in two and named Brockman to the newly created position of president of daytime, children's and late-night entertainment.

Meanwhile, at NBC, Brian Frons, who was vice president of daytime programs, was promoted to vice president of creative affairs in May. To fill his position, the network brought in Jackie Smith, who was president of daytime programs for ABC from 1977 to 1978.

Brockman's move to ABC is particularly significant. Under ABC's new structure, Brockman is independent of ABC Entertainment and, like the presidents of other divisions such as ABC News and ABC Sports, now reports directly to John B. Sias, president of the ABC Television Network Group. Before, daytime fell under the aegis of the entertainment department, rather than getting its own division and its own president. "The awareness on the part of the networks that they're sort of going to have to get their act together and figure out ways to revitalize the area, in some ways and in varying degrees, is reflected in these changes," Brockman said.

TV executives wistfully recall that daytime was once a great "daypart," as the networks refer to the various portions of their broadcast schedule. Compared to prime-time series and movies, daytime soap operas were cheap to produce; game shows and talk shows were even cheaper. Although industry experts disagree on whether daytime used to make more money for the networks than prime time, the lower production costs insured that their profit margins were higher. The audience the advertisers craved, women aged 18 to 49, were home, they were watching-and they were buying.

Then things changed. More and more women got jobs, and daytime ratings began to decline. More importantly, worried advertisers began to divert a greater percentage of their money to prime-time TV, rather than daytime TV. Along with the same threats facing prime time-more competition from independent stations, cable TV and videocassettes-local stations are buying more syndicated game shows and talk shows now than ever, leading them to pre-empt many network daytime shows.

Arnold Becker, vice president of television research at CBS, said that even though daytime ratings have not dropped sharply, advertisers fear that the women who are still at home watching daytime TV aren't the young, affluent ones they're after.

"Advertisers are saying: `Ratings or no ratings, how can I believe that there aren't a lot less women watching? And if I do believe the ratings, who could these women be?' " Becker said. "(Advertisers believe) these are probably economically undesirable women, if you will-somewhat older, they are likely to be somewhat poorer, and maybe these are not the leading-edge women that they want to get.

"Whether that's true or not, those kinds of perceptions do influence the people who buy advertising," Becker continued. "Especially since, when I go into the advertising agencies these days, the people who are making the decisions don't look like they're old enough to be working full-time."

Equally painful for the networks has been an innovation introduced in 1983: the 15-second advertisement.

Diane Seaman, NBC's vice president of daytime advertising sales, said the networks switched from 30-second commercials to 15-second commercials in every daypart except the Saturday morning children's block because they believed shorter spots would attract smaller advertisers who couldn't afford 30 seconds, and would provide another option for the regular pool of advertisers as well. The tactic may have attracted smaller companies, but it also led advertisers to discover something else: that, according to research studies, one 15-second spot was 80% as effective as a 30-second spot, for only half the price.

Frugal advertisers did not buy twice the number of daytime commercials, however. They began buying more prime-time spots with the money they saved in daytime. And because there are fewer major advertisers that buy daytime spots, the demand-and the price-for the available advertising time dropped. Seaman said the networks experienced the same financial hardship when they switched from 60- to 30-second spots years ago, but they eventually recovered and hope the same thing will happen again.

"We knew there was going to be some dislocation, that it would be rough going for a few years," she said. Although most plans to revitalize daytime are still in the talking stage, the networks have taken a few tentative steps to make their daytime lineups both more attractive and more profitable.

NBC, currently in last place in the daytime ratings, introduced a new daytime serial, GENERATIONS, in March. Besides the attraction of a new soap to viewers, said NBC's Frons, the network hoped to bring more advertising dollars back to daytime: although some daytime executives scoff at the idea, NBC believes that soaps are draw a more affluent audience than game shows, and thus can command higher advertising rates.

ABC, meanwhile, expanded its HOME show from 30 to 60 minutes a day earlier this year. Although the 19-month-old, do-it-yourself home-improvement show, which Rob Weller hosts, does not represent a new daytime concept, it was the first such show to come along in years and provided at least some relief from the steady diet of games and soaps.

Neither GENERATIONS, the story of two affluent Chicago families, one black and one white, or HOME have been ratings successes, however; HOME currently ranks 18th and GENERATIONS 20th out of 21 programs.

Still, ABC's Brockman argues that THE HOME SHOW remains attractive to advertisers because of its young, affluent audience.

In October, NBC plans to introduce ON-LINE, two daily, 30-second "vignettes" providing information on car care, life insurance, health and other such topics. Each spot would be sponsored by a company in that business. After the spot, the viewer would be provided with a 900 number to get more information from the sponsor on the subject. The call will cost between 50 cents and $2. All three network daytime chiefs point out that daytime TV has never thrived on innovation, however. While putting on a new show or changing the time slot of a failing one can sometimes rescue a prime-time series, moving or canceling a 15-year-old soap opera or favorite game show can spell disaster in daytime. "It's a life-style viewing pattern, rather than: `Honey, what's on tonight?' " CBS' Johnson explained. Johnson added that, while families often watch prime-time shows together, daytime viewers usually watch alone, allowing them to become more attached and involved than they might with a night-time series viewed as the result of a family consensus. The fact that the show airs five times per week, rather than just one, strengthens the habit.

So instead of racing to change their schedules, the networks instead hope to infuse new money into daytime by persuading advertisers that, although it may not be reflected in the Nielsen ratings, working women still find time for daytime TV.

To this end, ABC recently released two studies contending that the Nielsen ratings, which only measure viewing done in the home, fail to account for nearly three million women who watch soap operas while at work, on communal TV sets in college dorms, in lunch rooms, hospitals and on portable televisions almost anywhere. And all three networks are reminding advertisers that many working women now tape their favorite daytime shows and watch them in the evening.

And, said Johnson, advertisers need to know that women who work are also women with money. Hyundai recently became the first auto manufacturer to buy a spot on a soap opera, and others have followed. "It isn't all soap and Hamburger Helper anymore," she said.

"The profile of the advertiser is changing, the profile of the audience is changing. It's all in transition now."

[Jdee43]

Of the major networks, I think soaps were rockiest on NBC.

Their best era on the network was the late 1960s. There were some momentary highs in the 70s, but I still think the late 60s were tops, especially creatively. 

To see how far things fell, look at the line-up 20 years later, in the late 80s, with Days of Our Lives at 1pm, Another World at 2pm, and Santa Barbara at 3pm, all bloated, creatively declining shows. Another World was the best of the three, but it was still a shell of what it once was, and it wasn't getting the ratings. Days was getting ratings, but was pretty much a joke, a cartoon, even then; it had been since 1984 I'd say. Santa Barbara was more of an anti-soap, how a soap, especially at 60 minutes, should not be done, with a small cast and a ton of ridiculous, episodic stories designed to fill out the air time. It should have been 30 minutes. 

One of NBC's biggest mistakes was not to nurture The Doctors. If they were going to keep it at 30 minutes, maybe find a 30 minute show to pair it with? And give it back it's traditional time slot! I wonder how the late 80s would have looked on NBC with a schedule of Days at 1pm, Santa Barbara at 2pm, The Doctors at 2:30pm, and Another World at 3pm? 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Jdee43

[Paul Raven]

Some of NBC's issues over the years.

Failing to establish a successful soap beyond Days,AW and TD. For whatever reason they couldn't get that 4th soap to work. The best time was late 60's when they were winning 2-3.30 timeslot. But Bright Promise couldn't build an audience. If they had another strong show then it would have given them more flexilbility.

Then Somerset, RTPP, HTSAM , L&F/FRFP all failed. Was it the shows themselves ?

Revamping Days in 1980.The show had stagnated with too many older characters. But to then bring in another bunch of older, dull characters was madness.

Allowing AW to become a revolving door of characters that really only left Mac and Rachel . 

The Doctors did not introduce one successful new doctor character to infuse new life into the hospital setting. A strong young woman doctor when Althea left was a no brainer. Or a sexy male doctor. One of the Dancys could have been a doctor.

 

[Chris B]

I feel like out of their short lived 70s soaps, the one with the best chance of breaking out was Return To Peyton Place. It had name recognition and its ratings weren’t bad. I would’ve paired that with The Doctors and along with Another World and Days, I think they would’ve been a strong lineup. 
 

I also think not expanding The Doctors was a mistake. It’s crazy that show was so successful and they just seemed to give up on it. 

[Paul Raven]

They had a template to copy in General Hospital.

One thing that helped GH was the revamping of the hospital set. It was a big step up. I was watching The Doctors ep recently posted about a hostage situation and there were a few cast members huddled together on a tiny set, which took away from the drama.

ABC seemed prepared to invest $$$ into their shows whereas, for example,The Doctors didn't have its first location shoot till 1980.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Paul Raven