I had almost managed to forget the whole alien Burt story......

Soap was a rather schizofrenic show. Some stories worked great, while others were cringeworthy. I personally preferred the Tates over the Campbells. Mary was the only Campbell I really liked. But for me Katherine Helmond was the true star of that show. She excelled at both comedic and dramatic moments.

I never have the heart to watch any Laverne & Shirley from past 1980, and forget about the final season. It's just hard to watch the majority of the cast sleepwalk through every scene, including Penny Marshall sleepwalking through physical comedy.

Just now, I Am A Swede said:

I had almost managed to forget the whole alien Burt story......

Soap was a rather schizofrenic show. Some stories worked great, while others were cringeworthy. I personally preferred the Tates over the Campbells. Mary was the only Campbell I really liked. But for me Katherine Helmond was the true star of that show. She excelled at both comedic and dramatic moments.

 

I loved Jessica. She's one of the best TV characters of all time. I agree that I preferred the Tates, mainly due to Chester and Corinne. Eunice was insufferable (especially as the years passed) and Billy was...there. The Campbells were dragged down by Jodie (a character who should have been written out after season 1) and Burt. I did like Danny, and Chuck and Bob were amusing sometimes. Mary was the real star. Cathryn Damon was a superb actress. She died so young that she doesn't get the credit she deserves. I loved loved loved loved her work in Mary's stories in the last season (like her alcoholism, and her estrangement from Jessica - wasn't that the last season).

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

I loved Jessica. She's one of the best TV characters of all time. I agree that I preferred the Tates, mainly due to Chester and Corinne. Eunice was insufferable (especially as the years passed) and Billy was...there. The Campbells were dragged down by Jodie (a character who should have been written out after season 1) and Burt. I did like Danny, and Chuck and Bob were amusing sometimes. Mary was the real star. Cathryn Damon was a superb actress. She died so young that she doesn't get the credit she deserves. I loved loved loved loved her work in Mary's stories in the last season (like her alcoholism, and her estrangement from Jessica - wasn't that the last season).

 

I agree with everything. I can appreciate that Jodie was a groundbreaking character, but he was sooo boring, which is of course a cardinal sin for a sitcom character. And Richard Mulligan was better on Empty Nest, even though he was overshadowed by Park, Dinah and Kristy.

1 minute ago, I Am A Swede said:

 

I agree with everything. I can appreciate that Jodie was a groundbreaking character, but he was sooo boring, which is of course a cardinal sin for a sitcom character. And Richard Mulligan was better on Empty Nest, even though he was overshadowed by Park, Dinah and Kristy.

 

I grew up watching Empty Nest and I did like him so I wasn't expecting to hate Burt, but let's just say that I wasn't too unhappy that the cliffhanger for the show was Burt probably getting beaten to death. 

 

Jodie went from a bad stereotype to something close to a real person to being turned straight - that exhausted the character very fast. And they didn't commit to the last part, yet they also wouldn't call him bisexual. It was just a mess. They clearly had no plans for the character long-term. I think my "favorite" Jodie story was with the lesbian, mostly just because I liked the actress and thought she worked well with Billy Crystal. By the last season he wasn't even playing Jodie anymore! He was just doing standup. That kind of says it all.

I gave up on L&S when Cindy left and after the move to LA. they JTS when that happened. 

"Soap" started off great, but the demonic possession (of Tim and Corinne's baby) nonsense killed its' momentum.

 

4 minutes ago, Roman said:

I gave up on L&S when Cindy left and after the move to LA. they JTS when that happened. 

 

Ironically, the ratings for the last, Cindy/Shirley-less season were strong enough for ABC to consider renewing the show for another season.  However, ABC balked at Penny Marshall's insistence that they relocate production to NYC.

Edited November 23, 20187 yr by Khan

2 minutes ago, Khan said:

"Soap" started off great, but the demonic possession (of Tim and Corinne's baby) nonsense killed its' momentum.

 

 

Ironically, the ratings for the last, Cindy/Shirley-less season were strong enough for ABC to consider renewing the show for another season.  However, ABC balked at Penny Marshall's insistence that they relocate production to NYC.

PM really thought she ran ABC didn't she? I would have said 'hell no!" as well. NYC?! 

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

They clearly had no plans for the character long-term.

 

I suspect Susan Harris had intended for Jodie to go through with gender-reassignment surgery in the first season, but couldn't due to the skittish network execs.

Edited November 23, 20187 yr by Khan

Soap... I think when Corrine left at the start of the final season.. that really signaled that season 4 would not be a good season.

On 11/19/2018 at 12:13 PM, Costello said:

 I also agree about B&S. Another example a show hobbled by too much padding. It’s the Emily VanCamp curse.

 

 

 

B&S suffered from a lot of what daytime suffers from--network interference.  John Robin Baitz created it but had never done TV before despite being a well regarded playwright and he was blunt in his blog that by midway through season one he was out--he said ABC would send him production notes that literally said things like "this show needs a young, attractive *blonde* woman STAT".  (OK maybe not quite literally but they did tell him it could use a pretty young blond).  Add to that that afterwards it went into constant showrunner turnaround so there was no stability.  I actually think I watched every single episode--it never really offended me or anything, I liked the actors, etc, but there are full years of the show I would not be able to tell you offhand any of the storylines...

On 11/20/2018 at 8:55 AM, Gray Bunny said:

 

Brothers & Sisters I enjoyed consistently; I thought the final season was weaker but still good. I was just sad they got the Wonder Years treatment for the series finale (they shot it, not knowing if it'd be the season or series finale, as they didn't know if they'd be renewed) 

 

See I don't think I remember the finale at all.  WHat was the Wonder Years treatment?

On 11/22/2018 at 1:45 PM, Huntress said:

Popular on the WB. The first season was fantastic, but the second (and ultimately final) one got too melodramatic and had too much focus on the wrong characters.

I never watched Popular, but it SHOCKS me that a Ryan Murphy show, even before he teamed up with partner-in-crime Brad Falchuk, had a good first season and then fell off the rails!  *SHOCKS ME*

On 11/22/2018 at 2:38 PM, vetsoapfan said:

 

OMG, yes, the first season of THE OC was so good and then...God only knows what happened. Creator Josh Schwartz admitted much later that he thought the audience was enamoured with his writing style, but only realized afterwards that viewers cared more about the ORIGINAL CHARACTERS than just his scripts, and as the show tampered with the cast and concepts, the chemistry was lost and the fans revolted. He laughed about how hugely unpopular some of the later cast additions like Johnny were. For me personally, I was glad about the last season because the end did improve again and it brought closer to that world. (Boy, did I have the hots for Ryan Atwood!)

I was a teen when OC was on and I remember my dad of all people--a guy who would never be caught dead watching a "soap" was a big fan as well.  SOmewhere in the second half of the story with that stalker character (was his name Oliver?) it started to really seem to lose it--and he just stopped watching.  By Season 2 I had stopped as well..

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 I can't even remember what Chester and Jessica were doing at this time - if this is when Jessica was "dying," I liked that story.

If I remember correctly, Chester and Jessica went into marriage counseling for a few episodes, he cheated again and then it was into the Jessica's illness storyline.

 

5 hours ago, I Am A Swede said:

But for me Katherine Helmond was the true star of that show. She excelled at both comedic and dramatic moments.

I try not to get worked up over awards, but I firmly believe Ruth Gordon stole Katherine's Emmy for 1978-79.

 

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Mary was the real star. Cathryn Damon was a superb actress. She died so young that she doesn't get the credit she deserves. I loved loved loved loved her work in Mary's stories in the last season (like her alcoholism, and her estrangement from Jessica - wasn't that the last season).

It was. I wasn't a huge fan of that story, but Damon, Helmond and Robert Mandan sold it pretty well.

 

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I grew up watching Empty Nest and I did like him so I wasn't expecting to hate Burt, but let's just say that I wasn't too unhappy that the cliffhanger for the show was Burt probably getting beaten to death. 

 

I think my "favorite" Jodie story was with the lesbian, mostly just because I liked the actress and thought she worked well with Billy Crystal. By the last season he wasn't even playing Jodie anymore! He was just doing standup. That kind of says it all.

Burt definitely became a darker character in Season Four. I'm reminded of one episode ending where he's spilling his guts to a priest, who ends up dying. He ends up looking up to God and I think it's implied that Burt understands he's more or less alone in the world.

 

Randee Heller should have hung around. Either that, or Diana Canova. There's a nice, proto-Will & Grace (sorta) scene in Season Three where Jodie and Corrine trade notes on parenthood. Agreed with you on the Julius bit, though. It was a dry run for Billy's work on SNL and in Princess Bride.

14 hours ago, Huntress said:

😥

 

Edit: I just remembered another show that fits into this category: True Blood. Wonderful in its first season, enjoyable from seasons 2 to 4, and then falling apart in season 5. All the new characters they added in season 6 were pointless, and in the final season, most of the remaining original cast members were left with no exciting storyline. Instead they added everybody and their mother (in Tara's case, literally) to the main cast. If you only have 10 episodes per season, you don't need 25 people appearing on the opening credits. The only saving grace were Pam, Jessica, Jason, Sarah Newlin, and to some extent Eric.

I thought True Blood was such an obvious example that it wasn't worthy of bringing it up I also agree with your take on the show--season 5 was a mess but that's where Alan Ball wanted to end it.  He was burnt out but I thought HBO of all places would have realized that the show would not improve under a new showrunner and without his involvement (he retained an EP credit), but no instead it limped through two more seasons under Brian Buckner (who shockingly has not been allowed to lead a show since--though he writes for, yuck, Fear the Walking Dead).  I watched loyally till the end but seriously can not remember a thing from the last two seasons except for a bit about the very ending (a dinner party after burying Bill or... something?)

With primetime shows I'd be curious to know just how many examples there are of a show succeeding after its original showrunner/creator leaves it?  (Obviously this is harder to judge with older shows that didn't usually have that position).  I mean I was NEVER a fan but I suppose Sex and the City counts--I think Darren Star left after season 2 and what most fans seem to love is really Michael Patrick King's Sex and the City not Star's.  And of course with primetime soaps like daytime soaps this is less of an issue.

Edited November 24, 20187 yr by EricMontreal22

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

See I don't think I remember the finale at all.  WHat was the Wonder Years treatment?

 

When they filmed The Wonder Years finale, they didn’t know if they’d return another year and so they filmed it in such a way where Kevin’s voiceover could either be the usual sum-up of the episode or it could provide closure and explain what happened in the future. Since they ended up canceling the series, the voiceover explained what became of Kevin, Winnie, the family (the father apparently died two years later) etc. and gave closure. 

 

With B&S, unfortunately they didn’t know if they’d be cancelled even when Sally Field recorded the voiceover (I think the cancellation was actually announced like a week before the finale aired) and so her voiceover provided wisdom and reflection, but didn’t necessarily provide the final closure that Wonder Years had. 

 

Edited November 24, 20187 yr by Gray Bunny