9 hours ago, Vee said:

This is bad (particularly poor frumpy Liza being treated like the ugly one), as was virtually everything about the brief Rayfield/Cascio Frons' vision on steroids era that preceded Megan's return - I had never seen the show more unrecognizable and bizarre to me, and never would. But I will raise you and give you this video (timestamped), which features the unbelievably annoying original song I had almost convinced myself I'd imagined for the last 22 years until now. "Fuuuusionnnn! What women want!!"

 

 

When I watch this, I'm reminded of the "girlboss" era and how far away that seems now. Last year, all kinds of right-wing lunatics in the US and elsewhere went insane over a video of women in Australia having fun in an office. Today the above scene would cause all kinds of teeth-gnashing.

The reality of Fusion was never anything so feminist-forward and was mostly just cattiness and man troubles in a cheap, drabby office set.

I guess at least it lasted to the end of the show...didn't Erica end up there at some point?

31 minutes ago, Vee said:

Exactly. And in fairness, when she came back for the end she did commit all the way.

I can buy Agnes wanting to work with guilt/trauma because as Megan said, Agnes could certainly write about guilt to fuel drama. I don't buy it in terms of her merely wanting Julia punished for it, which is what Jim Reilly's tormented, conflicted Catholic mind often did with characters. Certainly not from the woman who surely had a hand in the flawless execution of the Cassandra abortion material on AMC 2.0, with the direct address to camera from Angie to Todd Akin.

I tend to agree. 

I would be more curious to know how McTavish felt about "redeemed by rape" stories, which she was seemingly fine with repeatedly using when she was headwriter (she had three, including Julia).

8 hours ago, Vee said:

It was Alberti, and he was not great. Bruening came later.

I remember liking Alberti well enough, as he had some presence, although I wasn't shocked when he was recast. 

8 hours ago, Vee said:

They brought on Alexandra Daddario as J.R.'s insta-girlfriend Laurie, as well as Seyfried as Joni who fared a bit better. (Daddario could not act back then.) But both came out of nowhere and had a series of Saved by the Bell-style teen plots with the terrible off-brand J.R. recast of the time (I think it was poor Andrew Ridings, who was wooden in the role) and whoever played Jamie - I can't remember, there was a rotating series. There were a few weird episodes devoted to these new insta-teens and maybe Brooke, Adam and Liza? sitting around a movie theater, which I found very strange (and again, straight out of an actual SBTB episode IIRC). There was the very hard, sudden Fusion push lumping all the women under 50 together in one office/job, and the massive push beyond Frons' new chosen leading men with each female lead - the remarkably terrible Carlos for Greenlee, the early, vaguely effeminate and very weird Michael Cambias for Kendall who came off too old for her, Boyd(!), etc. Like Fusion, the new men came out of nowhere and were promoted at this time as a singular unit in advertising - 'these are our new leads'.

The truly unfortunate Henry Chin thing others have mentioned was, I think, around this time and he was among the above males, which was too bad bc I liked Henry. (Did no one consider the optics of naming a AAPI family 'the Chins' and having them run a Chinese restaurant?) The endless intrigues of Cambias, Lena, etc. began to take over the show out of nowhere.

There's more craziness but that's what I can remember offhand. The very sudden, very forceful stuff with Fusion, the teens, etc. felt so foreign to the show for me. It did not feel like I was watching All My Children. I remember being surprised any time I'd actually see Erica, Tad, Adam, etc. Like 'what are you doing here?'

Both the videos above are from this period IIRC. It was very late 2002 to maybe summer '03.

Wasn't Henry meant to be a long lost child of Palmer's?

I remember class consciousness being brought back in around this time, but in a clunky, dated way. You had the free clinic with poor Ellen Bethea, you had Reggie, and Trey wanting to help him only for Reggie to turn him in for arson so he could get the reward money. And Laurie and her poor-but-proud father. I remember this mainly because he was played by Robert Clohessy, whom I was very fond of via his work on Oz. IIRC they were starting to pair him with Liza before he disappeared.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I remember class consciousness being brought back in around this time, but in a clunky, dated way. You had the free clinic with poor Ellen Bethea, you had Reggie, and Trey wanting to help him only for Reggie to turn him in for arson so he could get the reward money. And Laurie and her poor-but-proud father. I remember this mainly because he was played by Robert Clohessy, whom I was very fond of via his work on Oz. IIRC they were starting to pair him with Liza before he disappeared.

I actually was watching live on the couple days Chadwick Boseman appeared as Reggie (my college schedule was very deliberately arranged around the ABC soaps). As he said in his interview with Michael B. Jordan not long before his death CB was notably and comically far too old for the part. I just remember being mortified seeing poor Ellen Bethea (who still recurred from time to time on OLTL in that period as Rachel Gannon, since JFP had brought her back in the summer of 2000) as this henpecked social worker/doctor/whatever frowning at Jack and saying things like "Reggie is a very troubled young man!" and meanwhile Boseman looked about 26 years old. The whole routine of an 'inner city youth' being helped by kindly upper class whites was as old as the hills even then, and I found it wildly tone-deaf and old-fashioned that they were redoing Diff'rent Strokes, starring Jack Montgomery and a big guy who looked like he was starting for the Lakers. OTOH, MBJ's Reggie did become popular and beloved so there's that.

I don't remember if Erica actually worked at Fusion or ended up with a stake in it. I do know they parked literally every woman under 50 there after a certain point. It was ridiculous; everyone (other than Dixie, who wasn't around long enough to go there AFAIK) worked there because Frons said so, even traumatized lifelong shut-ins like the shortlived Erin Lavery. The B or C-players like her, Simone, Di, etc. became interchangeable. I didn't even hate the idea of Kendall and Greenlee forming a company, even though IIRC they'd hated each other until the Frons concept for Fusion took hold and they suddenly became love/hate lifelong BFFs. If they'd remained rivals/frenemies at the company (over more than just Ryan) that might've worked. But warehousing every woman on the show there was ridiculous.

I remember being so embarrassed for Marcy Walker in the stuff above, and in playing her with Laurie's dad. But honestly I'd been embarrassed for her for years. This is going further afield but like Julia Barr, Marcy had been styled and presented increasingly frumpy and boxed in onscreen, trapped in pantsuits or with ugly bangs, looking much older and heavier than she was while the stories kept treating both women like love goddesses for multiple hunks (Pierce, Elliott, Jake, Ryan). It happened so quickly for Liza even though MW had returned to the show young and vibrant in the mid-'90s.

It's tricky to talk about this without coming off wildly sexist, because the fact is this is a women's genre and many women of a certain age can and should be able to see and enjoy the stories of women over 25 being swept away by hot dudes - that's soap. I don't blame the actresses, as Marcy only turned 40 in '01! But the disparity between how they dressed, styled and presented these women vs. what they were giving them to play got rough. I think they could've looked and been lit much better. And so when they fobbed Liza off on Fusion it felt like they were treating her with condescension or pity, like an old horse put out to pasture, as they'd given her nothing to do for ages and made her look matronly for years, and now she was the house mother to hot young women. I sure don't remember seeing her there very often after the big 'launch,' despite this supposedly being her dream. She looks good in the ridiculous photoshoot montage clip, but she is still being presented notably different and/or mostly avoided by the camera. It was just too bad.

As to Henry, I honestly don't remember but it rings a vague bell. I really liked him, but not the backstory or pairing with Maggie.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Vee

12 minutes ago, Vee said:

I don't remember if Erica actually worked at Fusion or ended up with a stake in it. I do know they parked literally every woman under 50 there after a certain point. It was ridiculous; everyone (other than Dixie, who wasn't around long enough to go there AFAIK) worked there because Frons said so, even traumatized lifelong shut-ins like the shortlived Erin Lavery. The B or C-players like her, Simone, Di, etc. became interchangeable. I didn't even hate the idea of Kendall and Greenlee forming a company, even though IIRC they'd hated each other until the Frons concept for Fusion took hold and they suddenly became love/hate lifelong BFFs. If they'd remained rivals/frenemies at the company (over more than just Ryan) that might've worked. But warehousing every woman on the show there was ridiculous.

I remember being so embarrassed for Marcy Walker in the stuff above, and in playing her with Laurie's dad. But honestly I'd been embarrassed for her for years. This is going further afield but like Julia Barr, Marcy had been styled and presented increasingly frumpy and boxed in onscreen, trapped in pantsuits or with ugly bangs, looking much older and heavier than she was while the stories kept treating both women like love goddesses for multiple hunks (Pierce, Elliott, Jake, Ryan). It happened so quickly for Liza even though MW had returned to the show young and vibrant in the mid-'90s.

It's tricky to talk about this without coming off wildly sexist, because the fact is this is a women's genre and many women of a certain age can and should be able to see and enjoy the stories of women over 25 being swept away by hot dudes - that's soap. I don't blame the actresses, as Marcy only turned 40 in '01! But the disparity between how they dressed, styled and presented these women vs. what they were giving them to play got rough. I think they could've looked and been lit much better. And so when they fobbed Liza off on Fusion it felt like they were treating her with condescension or pity, like an old horse put out to pasture, as they'd given her nothing to do for ages and made her look matronly for years, and now she was the house mother to hot young women. I sure don't remember seeing her there very often after the big 'launch,' despite this supposedly being her dream. She looks good in the ridiculous photoshoot montage clip, but she is still being presented notably different and/or mostly avoided by the camera. It was just too bad.

As to Henry, I honestly don't remember but it rings a vague bell. I really liked him, but not the backstory or pairing with Maggie.

I remember how grimly lit the place was by the time of that Satin Slayer story - was it just one person who was killed there or was it more? So depressing.

I may be wrong about Henry. I remember Palmer being at the restaurant, and then how cliched Henry's family was. 

They spent so much time avoiding what people wanted to see with Elizabeth Hendrickson and only caved in when she and Eden Reigel were leaving the show. Then they broke up when Eden came back. Still, it was better than anything she has done on Y&R.

I can't even remember what they did with Liza in those last few years. I guess they kept having her dance around Adam until he married Krystal. 

During the plane crash story, poor Julia Barr was stuck in the most unflattering white pants for what felt like 2 or more weeks. They are still burned into my mind.

Even in a thankless role I was impressed with Bethea's warmth. I never knew if they were thinking of pairing her with Jack. 

5 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I remember how grimly lit the place was by the time of that Satin Slayer story - was it just one person who was killed there or was it more? So depressing.

Even in a thankless role I was impressed with Bethea's warmth. I never knew if they were thinking of pairing her with Jack. 

I know both Erin and Simone were killed by the Slayer, but I can't remember which one (or both) died on the premises. Anyone else? I don't think so.

I thought Bethea was a cold fish on AMC, but I blamed the one-note character.

They spent so much time avoiding what people wanted to see with Elizabeth Hendrickson and only caved in when she and Eden Reigel were leaving the show. Then they broke up when Eden came back.

I think virtually all Maggie's pairings after Henry were just them circling around Bianca. IIRC she got jealous of Bianca with Lena, with Babe, etc. and that was all in '03 and '04. Her with Jonathan was just her being victimized by choosing the wrong thing over Bianca. But I agree it took forever and was tiresome long before they left.

They did reunite Bianca and Maggie at one point, but then I think ended them for good when she came back with Reese. We know how that went. I still feel bad for Eden and Tamara Braun, who could've been wonderful together and who I think were both sold a major bill of goods by Pratt on that story from the beginning. Still, it is hard to accept a ready-made supercouple.

8 minutes ago, Vee said:

They did reunite Bianca and Maggie at one point, but then I think ended them for good when she came back with Reese. We know how that went. I still feel bad for Eden and Tamara Braun, who could've been wonderful together and who I think were both sold a major bill of goods by Pratt on that story from the beginning. Still, it is hard to accept a ready-made supercouple.

The hype for that story was probably one of the times I could most credibly accuse a soap of queerbaiting. And they both left as soon as they could, to their credit. 

I still have some vague memory of rumors they might have tried to pair up Bianca and Zach, although that may have just been paranoid fans.

10 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I still have some vague memory of rumors they might have tried to pair up Bianca and Zach, although that may have just been paranoid fans.

The version I heard was that Bianca would sleep with Ryan to get revenge on Reese, which may be what prompted Eden to quit and stay gone. (I actually was not horribly opposed to that idea in a vacuum as a one-off thing, but it would've been an awful precedent for a show that had thus far struggled to depict Bianca with any woman.)

I think Pratt's stated endgame goal there was always what he said it was after the fact, while blaming the actors: He intended to bring Tamara Braun to the show and make Reese into a 'bisexual vixen'/woman scorned after losing Bianca. Reese would then go on to mostly fúck the male characters Pratt preferred, like Zach. He pushed Zach/Reese for months. When Tamara quit he did the same with Jamie Luner's Liza.

And it's not like that specific idea (on paper) didn't make a kinky sort of sense to me; a 'perfect' lesbian couple, and the bisexual woman and supposedly committed new bride having an awkward, sexually tense relationship with her brother-in-law. That is good soap IMO - for another show. But using Bianca of all people, pairing her with a major daytime star (Braun) and pushing them in promotion as the lesbian supercouple we'd all been waiting for with a big wedding, only for it to merely be a cynical ploy to install Reese on the show - single sans Bianca, as Pratt described wanting her to become basically an omnisexual Carly - was just gross. That cynicism, as opposed to being truly committed to Bianca and Reese (Zach or no Zach, Ryan or no Ryan, or some other actual third lesbian - God forbid!) was the problem for me.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Vee

7 minutes ago, Vee said:

The version I heard was that Bianca would sleep with Ryan to get revenge on Reese, which may be what prompted Eden to quit and stay gone. (I actually was not horribly opposed to that idea in a vacuum as a one-off thing, but it would've been an awful precedent for a show that had thus far struggled to depict Bianca with any woman.)

Thanks. Ryan makes more sense than Zach in this instance. 

I guess Pratt was trying to make up for all the lesbian conversion stories he didn't get to write in primetime or on GH...

You're right that these stories, under other circumstances, or with other characters, might have worked more, but not this way.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by DRW50

7 hours ago, Khan said:

I agree.  Just as I find it hard to believe that she wanted Julia Santos to suffer or feel some guilt for having an abortion.  If she really felt that way, then she would’ve had Erica suffer a lot more than she did for having hers.  Heck, look at what Bill Bell did to poor Ashley Abbott on Y&R after she had had hers!

And as for Cady McClain: I won’t argue that she isn’t a lot to take, both on-screen and off.  Do I believe she deliberately sabotaged all efforts to reunite Dixie with Tad out of boredom and because she wanted to work more with Thorsten Kaye and Vincent Irizarry?  Absolutely.  Do I blame her for feeling that way?  Not really.  But she’s also someone who has long championed for soaps to stop telling these off-the-wall stories about situations that nobody can relate to, and to get back to Agnes Nixon’s philosophy of education-as-entertainment.  (Or so I’ve been told, lol).

Oh, how I wish it had been Jack who was killed with that bullet, lol.

1) Agnes was character driven while Megan was plot driven.  The only reason I can think that Agnes suggested the guilt element with Julia was based on character.  Julia was raised in a religious Catholic family and always felt overshadowed by her perfect older sister Maria.   So I could see Julia deciding to have an abortion because she was raped brutally, but also having some residual guilt based on her religious upbringing.   Had Agnes written it, it would have been powerful.

2) Dixie/Tad were a wonderful couple in 1989/1990... but realistically, they should have stayed broken up after the Liza affair.. but stayed on the canvas at the same time.

3) You know my position on Jack LOL 

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Soaplovers

4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Dixie/Tad were a wonderful couple in 1989/1990... but realistically, they should have stayed broken up after the Liza affair.. but stayed on the canvas at the same time.

To me, Tad and Dixie were like Cliff and Nina: whenever they'd reunite, you knew it just was a matter of time before they'd split up again.  In fact, you could set your watch to it.  And the more the show put us through that, the less I liked them being together at all.

If I had had my druthers, I would've brought back Laurence Lau as Greg and tested a Greg/Dixie union, while Tad would've moved onto other relationships.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Khan

15 minutes ago, Khan said:

To me, Tad and Dixie were like Cliff and Nina: whenever they'd reunite, you knew it just was a matter of time before they'd split up again.  In fact, you could set your watch to it.  And the more the show put us through that, the less I liked them being together at all.

If I had had my druthers, I would've brought back Laurence Lau as Greg and tested a Greg/Dixie union, while Tad would've moved onto other relationships.

Ohh now that would have been fun to watch - a Greg/Dixie pairing!

While I missed Tad so much during this time, I remember really being secretly in love with the Dixie/Craig pairing.  I know he was a bad guy, but they were really hot together I thought.  I'll never forget this scene and thinking wow, this Michael Bolton song just put me on another level! Hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9UD_NvcKn8

 

https://youtu.be/Z9UD_NvcKn8?si=pw38_lIE5shocZKt

ETA:  Well, I clearly don't know how to embed YT videos here haha - but hopefully the link works for those interested!

Edited March 17Mar 17 by alwaysAMC

Ice Cube's son tweeted this

 

 

Erica Mf’n Kane. pic.twitter.com/r8bPzFRVxg

— O’Shea Jackson Jr (@OsheaJacksonJr) March 17, 2025

2 hours ago, Khan said:

To me, Tad and Dixie were like Cliff and Nina: whenever they'd reunite, you knew it just was a matter of time before they'd split up again.  In fact, you could set your watch to it.  And the more the show put us through that, the less I liked them being together at all.

If I had had my druthers, I would've brought back Laurence Lau as Greg and tested a Greg/Dixie union, while Tad would've moved onto other relationships.

That's a great idea. It's a shame Greg's only returns were when Dixie was dead. I remember wondering why they didn't have him stay on more often as Lau had aged well and still worked well with Debbi and Darnell.

Maybe Greg could have some kind of secret drug addiction Dixie could counsel him through, and she might wonder if he's only fixating on her because she came back from the dead and Jenny never did. 

I think MEK and Cady still had chemistry up to a point - even their 1998/99 reunion I can buy - but Tad was just so self-righteous and dour by then. After the scenes where seemingly every Martin man in Pine Valley (Paul was busy, I guess) hounded Dixie about having an abortion, I just had no more interest.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by DRW50

4 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

After the scenes where seemingly every Martin man in Pine Valley (Paul was busy, I guess) hounded Dixie about having an abortion, I just had no more interest.

Shoot, even the ghost of Bobby Martin got in on that action.

6 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I remember wondering why they didn't have him stay on more often as Lau had aged well and still worked well with Debbi and Darnell.

I guess it's because they were afraid of viewers accusing them of still trying to replace Kim Delaney/Jenny, although, after twenty-some-odd years, I think even diehard Greg/Jenny fans would've understood that it was way past time for Greg to move on.

8 minutes ago, Khan said:

I guess it's because they were afraid of viewers accusing them of still trying to replace Kim Delaney/Jenny, although, after twenty-some-odd years, I think even diehard Greg/Jenny fans would've understood that it was way past time for Greg to move on.

They may have even gotten another brief Jenny return by that point, although it would have spoilt the power of her death if she was still alive.

13 minutes ago, Franko said:

Shoot, even the ghost of Bobby Martin got in on that action.

If Bobby had returned from camp just to harangue Dixie about her pregnancy, I'd respect the story more.