48 minutes ago, Khan said:

I agree.  Even back then, as it was happening, I didn't like what Stephen Black and Henry Stern were writing for ATWT, but at the same time, I didn't think they were so destructive that the show was being damaged irreparably.  Especially when I compared it to what JER was doing with DAYS, or Megan McTavish with AMC and GL.

UGH! JER eviscerated DAYS, IMHO. MMcT might have been somewhat less heinous, but she really stunk up the joint in Springfield and Pine Valley.

It is bewildering that soaps have failed to cultivate and hire quality writers in so many, many years. Obviously, recycling familiar hacks who have failed everywhere else does not work. At the very least, hiring Stern and Black was a stab at trying something different.

41 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think what upset me at the time was, beyond how cheap and crass the show started to feel (like infamously having a lengthy sex scene between Mark and Connor in the show's 40th anniversary episode), I missed the history and tradition, the returns of former characters, etc. Choices like dumping Ellen upset me a great deal. With hindsight, I know that wasn't their fault and the show was going to be yanked in that direction no matter what, even if it still doesn't make me see their era as much better in quality (if I tried to do a full rewatch I might have a more positive opinion, as they did at least give story to the vets, and while it was somewhat criticized at the time, I think they wrapped up Mac's Alzheimer's story decently enough, especially compared to how many soaps handle this topic).

Having watched the show my entire life, I was quite partial to the Lowell/Stewart family, and Ellen was its remaining lynchpin. I was furious when TPTB dropped the character without any reason given on-screen (at the time, anyway). I had to admit, however, that with almost all of her family gone, and with Ellen a widow, I was surprised she lasted as long as she did.

39 minutes ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

There was something I noticed when I tuned back into GH after many years for Jackie Zeman's send-off last month.  This is a slight exaggeration and certainly not scientific at all, but it seemed to me like there are more Gen X breakout soap stars of their day featured prominently on that one show than there were Baby Boomers on the frontburner across all the soaps in the late '90s/early '00s, who would have been around the same age then.  To say nothing of even older cast members.  It seems like those actors are there now because someone thinks they'll appeal to lapsed soap viewers, even if those viewers are older now.

Actually that is a good point: GH's use of "older" characters may very well be an attempt to interest/lure back lapsed (now older) viewers. The show would probably not feature appearances by Scorpio, Anna and other folks of a certain age to bedazzle 18-year-olds in the audience. One could say that DAYS might be continuing to use Julie, Doug, Maggie, Marlena and John because of longtime viewers' loyalty to those characters, not in an attempt to pander to Gen Zers.

39 minutes ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

Of course, many of those middle-aged+ performers who are now getting work on GH made their names on shows that are off the air (like Maura West, to bring it back to ATWT) and/or in stories that were mostly lackluster to begin with.  And whether they're being well utilized is even further off-topic, so I'll just leave it there on that note.  It's just sad this couldn't have happened when there were still ~ 10 soaps with 40+ and 50+ year-old veterans who had rich histories that could still be mined - ATWT chief among them, of course.

The fact that ATWT held on to so many of its older veteran actors was an incredible gift. It was just an infuriating waste that Sheffer barely used them most of the time. I'm not fan of Jean Passanante, but at least she did pay attention to folks like Bob and Kim more than Sheffer did.

39 minutes ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

That said, I don't know if the all-powerful demographic has actually been debunked or if networks have given up on the idea of 18-34 year–olds watching a soap, or perhaps any other network TV in the daytime.  Still, knowing what I know now, a part of me wishes TPTB had decided in 1990-something that soaps were on borrowed time and let them keep doing their thing for as long as it continued to make sense to keep them on the air.

Yes, the "suits" should have backed off decades ago and let soaps be soaps and do what daytime dramas do best, without all the ((ahem)) helpful hints and outright mandates from TPTB. The micro-managing was always misguided at best and harmful at worst.

42 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

They talk about Frank & Ron saving the show & they talk about what people usually want to do with their vets contrasted with Frank & the vets. 

I will hold my breath, pinch my nose, and give Frank a brownie point for that. In all seriousness, many executive producers would have dismissed many of the veteran actors and characters. With a lot of them still on GH's canvas, there's at least a chance they will be used well someday. Fingers crossed, Patrick Mulcahey.

What a shame that we will never see ATWT get the chance to shine again.

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

UGH! JER eviscerated DAYS, IMHO. MMcT might have been somewhat less heinous, but she really stunk up the joint in Springfield and Pine Valley.

Oh, no, she IMO is & was a bonafide #SoapKiller. Not even Reilly could out-do the UnAbortion. 

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

It is bewildering that soaps have failed to cultivate and hire quality writers in so many, many years. Obviously, recycling familiar hacks who have failed everywhere else does not work. At the very least, hiring Stern and Black was a stab at trying something different.

You will excuse me if I continue to blame Connie Chung's husband for that particular debacle. The only saving grace is that they were not left to do their worst for very long!

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Actually that is a good point: GH's use of "older" characters may very well be an attempt to interest/lure back lapsed (now older) viewers. The show would probably not feature appearances by Scorpio, Anna and other folks of a certain age to bedazzle 18-year-olds in the audience. One could say that DAYS might be continuing to use Julie, Doug, Maggie, Marlena and John because of longtime viewers' loyalty to those characters, not in an attempt to pander to Gen Zers.

And, maybe they see the value in keeping certain viewers. What an idea, to maintain a loyal fanbase?!!

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

The fact that ATWT held on to so many of its older veteran actors was an incredible gift. It was just an infuriating waste that Sheffer barely used them most of the time. I'm not fan of Jean Passanante, but at least she did pay attention to folks like Bob and Kim more than Sheffer did.

I'm not going to talk about the end of ATWT because I make people mad when I get going on Goutman. 

 

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Yes, the "suits" should have backed off decades ago and let soaps be soaps and do what daytime dramas do best, without all the ((ahem)) helpful hints and outright mandates from TPTB. The micro-managing was always misguided at best and harmful at worst.

AMEN & pass the biscuits. 

2 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I will hold my breath, pinch my nose, and give Frank a brownie point for that. In all seriousness, many executive producers would have dismissed many of the veteran actors and characters. With a lot of them still on GH's canvas, there's at least a chance they will be used well someday. Fingers crossed, Patrick Mulcahey.

What a shame that we will never see ATWT get the chance to shine again.

Or AW or GL. The traditional P&G theatrically inspired, kitchen table talking, multigenerationally living, New York located soaps are gone forever. 

Re Ellen

Had they nurtured core families, with a little SORASING you have her 4 grandchildren ready to be the new teens/young adults.

That should have been a gift to the writers but they chose to ignore it.

Her daughter Dee never returned. She could have come back as a business woman, ready to get revenge on John, or fallen for him again etc.

Plenty of opportunities for Ellen to be strong supporting.

The start of this has a brief glimpse of a UK ATWT airing - they must have been about two years behind.

 

Just now, Paul Raven said:

Re Ellen

Had they nurtured core families, with a little SORASING you have her 4 grandchildren ready to be the new teens/young adults.

That should have been a gift to the writers but they chose to ignore it.

Her daughter Dee never returned. She could have come back as a business woman, ready to get revenge on John, or fallen for him again etc.

Plenty of opportunities for Ellen to be strong supporting.

Yes, it was a real mistake to never do anything with Dee or Annie down the line. I suppose Marland may have thought they would make no sense with the later canvas, but I think it could have worked.

27 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

Oh, no, (MMcT) IMO is & was a bonafide #SoapKiller. Not even Reilly could out-do the UnAbortion. 

The unabortion ranks down there in the pit of soap-story hell, and I agree with MMcT beings dreadful, but overall, I have to say JER was worse.

27 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

You will excuse me if I continue to blame Connie Chung's husband for that particular debacle. The only saving grace is that they were not left to do their worst for very long!

Not like JER, Carlivati, Pratt, McTavish, Racina, Higley, and others whose tenures seemed to last forever. That's why I assert that Stern and Black were not the worst of the worst in the history of the genre..

27 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

And, maybe they see the value in keeping certain viewers. What an idea, to maintain a loyal fanbase?!!

When TPTB don't care about older viewers of soaps, they are signing the shows' death warrants. Older viewers are a huge part of the potential audience.

27 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

Or AW or GL. The traditional P&G theatrically inspired, kitchen table talking, multigenerationally living, New York located soaps are gone forever. 

Alas. 🥺

34 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Re Ellen

Had they nurtured core families, with a little SORASING you have her 4 grandchildren ready to be the new teens/young adults.

That should have been a gift to the writers but they chose to ignore it.

Her daughter Dee never returned. She could have come back as a business woman, ready to get revenge on John, or fallen for him again etc.

Plenty of opportunities for Ellen to be strong supporting.

Over the years, I have also thought about the different ways which the Stewarts could have been revitalized and returned to prominence. But I knew the show, its characters and its history, and I cared about ATWT's legacy. I have a feeling this was not the case among the revolving door of TPTB.

40 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Yes, it was a real mistake to never do anything with Dee or Annie down the line. I suppose Marland may have thought they would make no sense with the later canvas, but I think it could have worked.

Me too. And to give Marland credit, he kept David Stewart's presence alive on the show until he had no other choice than to replace Henderson Forsythe with another actor, or lay the character to rest. And after David's death, Marland kept Ellen around and seen fairly regularly. Marland knew that on ATWT, audience love for the characters was strong.

30 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

The unabortion ranks down there in the pit of soap-story hell, and I agree with MMcT beings dreadful, but overall, I have to say JER was worse.

They're just totally different birds. Reilly is more like Monty. They did things that some people loved but they damaged the genre in the process.

McT not only had the UnAbortion but she had the lesbian be raped, horribly & then later she had the lesbian's baby be stolen & her told her baby had died. And, she created Kendall, whose birth was completely against Agnes's canon for Erica. And, at GL she nearly destroyed one actor's life while telling an appalling story that included the heinous murder of Nadine. 

So, it's just an agree to disagree situation. 

30 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Not like JER, Carlivati, Pratt, McTavish, Racina, Higley, and others whose tenures seemed to last forever. That's why I assert that Stern and Black were not the worst of the worst in the history of the genre..

So you give them a pass because someone had the sense to fire them. That's kind of cute. I don't agree but it is amusing & not threatening. You still have your values intact!

30 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

When TPTB don't care about older viewers of soaps, they are signing the shows' death warrants. Older viewers are a huge part of the potential audience.

Alas. 🥺

I do so miss the New York soaps. If I could have my druthers of an all classic soap streaming service it would be showing AW, ATWT, GL, Santa Barbara (I know Disney owns them, this is make-believe.), PC, Texas, AMC & OLTL. 

No question about it, from 1995 on, the single most damaging thing to ATWT was so many changes, so many different HWs, so many different EPs, too, but HWs is absolutely egregious. 

And, ATWT fans in this thread, I'm sorry that my replies have talked about so much more than ATWT. 

And don't even get me started on Goutman. When he told Jennifer Lenhart that he did not want to hear what the fans thought because he knew what was right for the show & then she gave him a chance to keep that statement out of the Q&A, inquiring if he was sure the really wanted to say that, he did not take it back, no, he told her to print it. Well, that was an incredibly dark day for ATWT, for soap fans, etc. 

After giving AW the most hated finale in all of soaps, he progressed to make the ATWT set no longer the happy place it had been for 4 decades. 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by Donna L. Bridges

2 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

What you're talking about at GH is because of Frank, although I guess it started with Riche/Labine. 

There is a TV Guide mag article (April 2014) that Michael Logan did with Geary, Shriner & Jane Elliot that you would enjoy & get a lot out of. It's online & you should be able to find it. If you can't PM me & I'll get it for you. 

They talk about Frank & Ron saving the show & they talk about what people usually want to do with their vets contrasted with Frank & the vets. 

For sure, Valentini and Carlivati have an enthusiasm for veterans that is admirable, whatever else you could say about their work.  (And post-2009 at the absolute latest, there is little else good that I have to say.)  I just don't think any writer or producer would have been empowered to center so many characters in their 40s or 50s to such an extent for about 10-20 years there previously.  It seems like every regime had to pick and choose, and the vets who got airtime all had to be tied (by any dubious DNA test) to one or more of the teen characters.  Or they and/or their love interest were about to be killed off...

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by DeliaIrisFan

2 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

You will excuse me if I continue to blame Connie Chung's husband for that particular debacle.

Maury Povich? Or do you mean Les Moonves who is (was?) married to Julie Chen?

59 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

So you give them a pass because someone had the sense to fire them. That's kind of cute. I don't agree but it is amusing & not threatening. You still have your values intact!

In no way did I ever say, or imply, that I give Stern and Black a pass. I acknowledged their contribution to ATWT was weak. I would never hire them to steer any soap again. I said they were not my choice for the absolute WORST writers in daytime's history. That cannot be construed as giving them a pass.

59 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

I do so miss the New York soaps. If I could have my druthers of an all classic soap streaming service it would be showing AW, ATWT, GL, Santa Barbara (I know Disney owns them, this is make-believe.), PC, Texas, AMC & OLTL. 

I'd add Henry Slesar's years at The Edge of Night to my dream list of TGL, ATWT, AW, DAYS, Y&R, OLTL, GH, AMC and probably even SOM (all in their best years, not necessarily in their entirety).

59 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

And don't even get me started on Goutman. When he told Jennifer Lenhart that he did not want to hear what the fans thought because he knew what was right for the show & then she gave him a chance to keep that statement out of the Q&A, inquiring if he was sure the really wanted to say that, he did not take it back, no, he told her to print it. Well, that was an incredibly dark day for ATWT, for soap fans, etc. 

After giving AW the most hated finale in all of soaps, he progressed to make the ATWT set no longer the happy place it had been for 4 decades. 

Most people I speak to agree he was a destructive, negative force.

 

48 minutes ago, DeliaIrisFan said:

For sure, Valentini and Carlivati have an enthusiasm for veterans that is admirable, whatever else you could say about their work.

The issue is that during that regime (and at the exact time of that well-known interview) they also began to relegate the vets to these sort of juvenile C/D-tier plots in the background, where they'd all have senior love triangles or quads on recurring that made no sense and were demeaning to watch, catfighting and tossing around expository dialogue about old storylines, and often you'd pick them up weeks or even months later like it had either been going on in the background (Duke and Lucy suddenly having a full fledged relationship, all offscreen) or had no development whatsoever. I suspect that's why Genie dipped in 2013 shortly after returning for the anniversary; the rumor was Frank had expected her to become part of the veteran recurring corps too along with Stephen Nichols to play out more of this background silliness, and she wasn't having it. It wasn't the last time Frank tried either.

I think there's times they did a lot of good for the veteran characters on GH and OLTL and understood the importance of having them there; FV has certainly kept that end up strong in more recent years. But I also think there's times back then that they just let them play out silliness on the margins and called that good story. Viki, Dorian, David, Charlie, etc. on OLTL weren't immune to this at times either. Anyway, it's all OT.

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by Vee

31 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Maury Povich? Or do you mean Les Moonves who is (was?) married to Julie Chen?

Oh, crap. Yes I meant Les Moonves. Totally ruined a halfway clever line. Thank you for the heads up! I'm choosing to laugh at this. 

28 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

In no way did I ever say, or imply, that I give Stern and Black a pass. I acknowledged their contribution to ATWT was weak. I would never hire them to steer any soap again. I said they were not my choice for the absolute WORST writers in daytime's history. That cannot be construed as giving them a pass.

I apologize. I exaggerated. Please forgive. Mea culpa. I knew you weren't giving them a pass. I was feeling whimsical. My fault, entirely.

28 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I'd add Henry Slesar's years at The Edge of Night to my dream list of TGL, ATWT, AW, DAYS, Y&R, OLTL, GH, AMC and probably even SOM (all in their best years, not necessarily in their entirety).

Most people I speak to agree he was a destructive, negative force.

 

Many people do add him & it. 

16 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

I apologize. I exaggerated. Please forgive. Mea culpa. I knew you weren't giving them a pass. I was feeling whimsical. My fault, entirely.

No harm, no foul, no sweat.🙂

 

1 minute ago, vetsoapfan said:

No harm, no foul, no sweat.🙂

 

No worries! Best words this side of (((HUGS))) 👌🤞😉

I'm very interested to see what my reaction will be to the Sheffer years now that I've spent the past 7 years watching everything available from '85. I've seen enough of the history of the show that I wonder if my feelings will change. I started watching originally in late Feb/early March '00 which was Leah Laiman, one of my least favorite HW. I remember when Sheffer took over, ATWT suddenly came to life.

Barbara was going to be fired and, although what he did to the character I know is controversial, she was able to keep her job. 

For every ABC actor the casting people were forced to hire from TPTB, they hired seasoned, well known NYC theater actors for other roles - Rose's father, the woman who helps steal a child for Craig/Rosanna, for instance. Mitzi is another seasoned NYC character stage actress. They had a lot of great actors on the show doing great work.

Annie Parisse is another one. I've seen in 5 Broadway show - she's amazing. Hogan Sheffer clearly saw what they had in her and that she had been completely wasted for 2 years and, yes he changed her character, but he gave her really meaty stuff to play that she knocked out of the park, especially when you consider the actors get only one take. And it wasn't much of a stretch now that I see how hysterical David Stenbeck made her. A psychotic break was totally in the realm of believability.

I agree that the mid 90s were tough to get through. I don't know if that's because so much is missing or if that helped things. Like Sara (?) Kasnoff and her model friend, as well as that weird Paul that lasted for a hot second. The aforementioned Connor/Mark pairing that just didn't work. Holden gone for another 2 year stretch. An uninteresting SORAS Dani. Even Jordan Brewster was dull. Barbara was so back-burner, she wasn't even on the stove for years. 

But I really enjoyed the late 90s. David Steinbeck having plastic surgery and returning (although going about 3 months too long) was clever and fun to watch a younger Stenbeck terrorize the cast. All the baby switching/who's the daddy storylines were fun and all came out at pretty much the same time - I thought that was a hoot. 

The racist cop, the burning of the church, and everything that came out of that was must-see-TV for me.

John got really meaty stuff to play with the loss of Johnny, and then Parker, and now he sees the chance to use Andy's daughter, Hope, as a surrogate for all of his baby-loss. All of which has turned him back into the classic prick that John always was. I've been waiting for Kim to give him a "Toots speech."

Simon and Bryant have just been introduced. I'm waiting any day now to see what I know I'll remember as the first ATWT episode I ever watched. Looking forward to the next few years and seeing how I feel upon a second watch of the '00s.

17 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

McT not only had the UnAbortion but she had the lesbian be raped, horribly & then later she had the lesbian's baby be stolen & her told her baby had died. And, she created Kendall, whose birth was completely against Agnes's canon for Erica. And, at GL she nearly destroyed one actor's life while telling an appalling story that included the heinous murder of Nadine.

I hear about the unabortion all the time...would love to hear what the whole storyline was played out....I imagine it had to be much like GL and Brandon is Amanda's bio-dad...soemthing that could have happened but was not what we saw on screen...(and no one could tell me that McTrash did not come up with that storyline...it came too close to her being shown the door and reeks of her stink.) But you can't blame her on the actor's intense reaction to playing that story out...it was a typical story with a bit of a twist...but it shouldn't have been played as many days a week as it was and it went on way too long. You think Sheffer was mean and nasty....McTrash had Brent making fun of Nadine as he was carrying her coprse around....this on the heals of JFP killing off Mo made GL the "Lets kill our moms" , soap.