As The World Turns Discussion Thread

[DramatistDreamer]

Yeah, but Dusty had already begun the maturation process even before Marland took over.  Do you remember the scenes in 1983 where Dusty raged and basically destroyed John’s lab? Even by the next year, he had considerably calmed down from that volatile stage and started to mature. 
Lucinda didn’t approve of Dusty and Lily back then primarily because she thought Lily was too young to be so close to a boy she was obviously attracted to and feared for the worst if Lily and Dusty got too close. Once Lily became attracted to Holden, Dusty the minor became the safer alternative in comparison to an adult man in Holden. John Dixon, on the other hand, worried that Lily’s instability would lure Dusty into a sexual situation that they couldn’t easily extricate themselves from. He and Lucinda argued about it. Once Dusty and Lily were living together, Lucinda admitted that she didn’t approve, although she liked Dusty.

Edited October 7, 2023 by DramatistDreamer

[DRW50]

That's a very good point. You wouldn't get a month-long birthday runup for Heather's Lily. I felt like there was a lot of wheel-spinning as well (I struggle to even remember what voice Lily had by the late '80s - she went back to Dusty, then sort of with Caleb, but sort of not, then got a scar, then was sort of in business, etc.). Using the Derek story to harden Lily (which was dropped early on with Heather - not sure how it would have played out with Martha) was an interesting choice, potentially.

I think the break from Lily was good for Martha for a while, and vice/versa. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by DRW50

[P.J.]

Lily was supposed to be some kind of moral center of the show (or one in training). She was especially Lucinda's judge, which in retrospect is kind of silly. She some how managed to be every man's ideal, so much so it was refreshing when Duke treated her like the brat she was. 

The break from Martha was good for the show, much like the break GL got from Kim Zimmer in the early '90s. Although they tried recreating the Lily/Holden dynamic with both Rosanna/Hutch and Ro/Mike.

[kalbir]

Martha Byrne original recipe Lily was As the World Turns version of Y&R Cricket.

[DramatistDreamer]

I agree with you, except for the original recipe part. Lucy Deakins was the first Lily. Martha, originally tried out for the role but lost out to Deakins. When Deakins elected to leave, the show contacted Martha.

It seemed like the sign of the times that these shows wanted at least one character to be the teenage girl who would be the center of attention on the canvas.
I sometimes wonder why they elected to choose Lily and not, say, Frannie Hughes (although I think when Julianne Moore first came on the show, they may have tried to go that route and elected to make the character more ‘Hughesian’ (I.e. earnest). I guess it was somewhat of a trend at the time for these daytime soaps to have their own version of a spoiled rich girl, GL had teenage Mindy Lewis before Lily and Cricket, although to be honest, Mindy seemed more complex as a character than the other two.

With Mindy and Lily, they were heiresses so the entitled behavior made somewhat of sense. I always thought it a bit odd how Cricket just kind of sprung up and out at us. I think she had a cousin or somebody who was a photographer or something and suddenly, she was a spokesmodel for Jabot. Odd.

[P.J.]

I believe Cricket's cousin's name was Skip, but that's neither here nor there.

Frannie had led the teen set before Lily came to town. I would guess maybe Lily was brought on to give Dusty someone his age to interact with? I'm wracking my brain to try and remember...but other than Paul and Andy, who were younger, what kids were on canvas. 

[TEdgeofNight]

Heather Rattray as Lily. Terrible recast. Couldn’t stand her. I was so glad when Martha returned. Even Noelle Beck was a better Lily than Heather. 

[Soaplovers]

I'm guessing Marland kind of envisioned Lily/Holden to be a sort of Taming of the Shrew done from 80s teen perspective... spoiled rich girl meeting her match in the stable boy.

Problem was that Lily/Holden were better characters apart then when they were together.  They brought out the worst in one another... Lily being so needy/inspid while Holden being cute but dumb.   Whenever they were apart, Lily got her brains and fight back.. while Holden got his intelligence and drive back.

Lily played Martha was kind of annoying/one note by 1988/9.. that it was nice to have a break for a few years till Martha could grow up and play a more adult Lily.

However, when Holden came back in 1997... Lily regressed as a character.

[Soapsuds]

Some Brian Bloom pics

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[OzFrog]

Been revisiting the early 1984 episodes involving the culmination of Steve/Betsy/Craig. The 2 and a half minutes starting at 44:00 in this episode is to this day one of the most emotionally gripping clips I’ve ever watched in daytime soaps. Scott Bryce and Anne Sward were just amazing here…

 

And also the 3 minutes of this one starting at 21:55… this is what soaps are all about…

 

[DramatistDreamer]

Yes, they were. I know that Anne Sward isn’t some people’s favorite, but when the writing was good, even in some instances when the writing was not so good, she could exude real emotional depth. I also found her believable as Craig and Margo’s (my memories of her mothering Cricket are sparse and faded) mother, despite the obvious real life age discrepancies.

That’s what writers would refer to as the big emotional payoff. Today’s daytime soaps don’t seem to do this anymore. It’s an obvious turning point for Craig (as he has finally realized that he has hit rock bottom) and Lila has to witness the fact that her child has been beaten up (literally) by life, and she cannot do a thing to protect him from himself and his own poor choices, he must turn things around for the better by himself. It took at least a year to get these characters to this point, that’s why those scenes were so gripping.

Today’s soaps usually try to rush the stories to these types of moments, without a proper story setup. As a result, it almost always ends up reading like emotional fodder as Emmy award bait.

Thanks for the reminder @OzFrog for what caused many of us to fall in love with this show in the first place.

On a slightly related note, has anyone ever asked Scott Bryce just how many times Craig went to jail? Didn’t his daddy Bart once land in prison? I had always hoped the show would have Bryant in danger of repeating some of the same mistakes as Craig and having Craig shift to a Lila type character who eventually would have to let Bryant take some hard knocks but unfortunately,  they decided to SORAS Bryant only to destroy him and Craig’s character in the end.

Edited October 14, 2023 by DramatistDreamer

[Liberty City]

Heather Rattray did well in the role, but her Lily was very different than that of Martha Byrne. The ultimate problem was she did not share the right chemistry with Jon Hensley's Holden that Byrne did. And Noelle Beck was a horrid Lily, and her casting was insulting. I don't blame her. I blame Chris Goutman. The fact we did a dieting pill storyline involving Byrne and then go and cast Beck, who clearly did not embody that kind of previous storyline, left a major sour taste in my mouth.

[P.J.]

And scenes like those were why I could never buy the regression of Craig in the '00s.

[Soapsuds]

 

[DramatistDreamer]

On the cover of next month’s Vanity Fair, there is a vintage photo of Barbra Streisand with the lead article line that says “Hello, Barbra!”

You can probably guess what next came to mind when I saw that.

Edited October 17, 2023 by DramatistDreamer