Lovers and Friends/For Richer For Poorer Discussion Thread

[dtd655]

Does anyone know what became of Julia MacKenzie (Laurie #2).  Every time I tried to look her up on the internet (since 1998) the only information I got was British actress, Julia McKenzie.  I read recently of the deaths of Darlene Parks (Megan #2); Albert Stratton (Lester Saxton #2) and, of course, Patricia Barry (Viola Brewster).  Any information appreciated.

[Paul Raven]

[Forever8]

 

[DRW50]

At around 27 minutes there's an Avon ad with Christine Jones, probably not long before L&F.

 

WBBM Channel 2 - The Mary Tyler Moore Show - "The Last Show" (Complete Broadcast, 3/19/1977)

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[dc11786]

Thanks. I've never seen much of Jones' work but her characters always intrigue me. Originally, Amy was a schemer who had her eyes on the Cushing money, but also seemed to have feelings for Austin. Rod Arrants' Austin was driven to alcoholism by the endless pressure to join the family business when all he wanted to do was be an artist. I remember being really impressed when I saw Arrants in the episode available at Paley Center. During Megan and Desmond's engagement party, Megan tracks down Austin to his room where he is blitzed and going on and on about how miserable his existence was. I would love to have seen the material with Austin went to work at the factory and befriended Lester Saxton, a recovering alcohol, who tried to get Austin back on his feet while the Cushings pushed to have Austin institutionalized to deal with his issues. 

 

I don't think Amy was as complex on "For Richer, For Poorer," but I think there was potential to revisit some of that with Amy's modeling career and her previous relationship with Lee Ferguson. 

 

It's a shame that most of this will never show up. In particular, the "Lovers and Friends" sequences fascinate me, and I would be curious to see the second half of "For Richer, For Poorer."

[Nicholas Blair]

I saw both L&F and FRFP when they were on. Clearly Amy was originally intended to be the bad girl (the Rachel or Erica Kane) trying to come between Austin and his true love, Laurie. However, Christine Jones and Rod Arrants had so much chemistry, and Christine was just so much more interesting than her counterpart, that there was a quick switch, and Austin and Amy were now the couple to root for.

Rod Arrants clearly had what it took to be a TV star, and Richard Backus was an excellent villain. Christine Jones had star quality, too. She was a great substitute for Erika Slezak briefly on OLTL and she played the evil Janice Frame on AW, Victoria Thompson having begun as the nicer Janice.

I was also a fan of David Abbott, the youngest brother Bentley Saxon, a short, funny, cute guy who didn't get a whole lot of story time. According to imdb, he is now known as Abbott Alexander, an actor and casting director.

[amybrickwallace]

Christine Jones' maternal grandfather was Branch Rickey, the legendary baseball general manager who signed Jackie Robinson to the Dodgers. This image appeared on Twitter:

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[j swift]

I plan on doing a deep dive into this thread tomorrow while my holiday breads are rising, so forgive me if this has been asked and answered, but what did NBC run in the time slot during L&F's seven month hiatus?

Does anyone recall the promos for the return?  Did NBC explain the name change or do a recap?  On the Friday before the hiatus was there any mention that the soap would return?

I am just really fascinated with the bold programming move of putting a show on hiatus, changing the title and some of the character's names and expecting the audience to stay on board.

[watson71]

Initially, Chico and the Man reruns aired when Lovers and Friends was pulled from the lineup.

[robbwolff]

Reruns of Chico and the Man replaced Lovers and Friends in the 12:30 time slot (here on the east coast). At some point, The Gong Show moved from 4:00 p.m. to 12:30 p.m. and replaced Chico. When L&F returned as For Richer, For Poorer, it was given the 1:00 p.m. time slot.

[dc11786]

I don't know much about the promotion, but I would imagine having Rod Arrants and Christine Jones appear on "Another World" in the month leading up to the show's return was part of the promotion. I also would imagine having Rachel and Mac go to Point Claire for a brief stint was meant to bring some of the "Another World" audience to "For Richer, For Poorer." The ratings for "Lovers and Friends" were low. I don't think NBC cared about regaining that audience, but rather hoped that a revamp would bring in a new (larger) audience.

The premier of "For Richer, For Poorer" is available at the Paley Center. It is a very plot driven episode. The show jumps right into the action without much recap from what I recall. The show opens with a fakeout. Megan and Bill are reciting their vows, but the camera pulls back and you realize it is only their rehearsal. I don't remember if they even mentioned that Richard Cushing had died from the heart attack he had in the finale of "Lovers and Friends." There was a scene with Connie Ferguson talking to her father Ira about the wedding plans and it was clear that Connie had some news that would disrupt the wedding. I believe it was clear in the show's initial run that Connie was pregnant with Bill/Rhett's child. 

I'd like to see more of this especially the "Lovers and Friends" run. Rod Arrants was very good with the early version of Austin, the alcoholic screw up who didn't fit in with the posh uptight Cushing clan. I also would have to loved to seen how Flora Plumb played the social climbing Ellie Kimball and her "friendship" with Nancy Marchand's Edith Cushing. And basically anything from either run with Richard Backus playing Jason. 

 

[Nicholas Blair]

They never explained the name change. For Richer, For Poorer was a much better title for the show Lemay had created because he was always interested in that subject. Lovers & Friends suggested a kind of urban sophistication.

Rhett simply became Bill with no explanation. The offscreen death of Richard Cushing was used as a reason for the softening of Edith Cushing's character (mentioned once by one of the characters), as Nancy Marchand had moved on (to Lou Grant, IIRC) and Laurinda Barrett, another fine actress, had replaced her. Albert Stratton was also new to the cast, younger and better-looking than his predecessor, and in the interim his character had fallen back off the wagon.

According to Lemay's memoir, the audience was not interested in the original Rhett and Megan, who had been intended as the lead romantic couple, and that is why they were replaced. I don't know if Bill and NuMegan were any more popular as a couple, for the revised show didn't last that long. I definitely preferred Patricia Estrin, the original Megan, to the more doll-like Darlene Parks. I liked both David Ramsey (Rhett) and Tom Happer (Bill).

Ultimately, the show is most remembered for the discovery of Rod Arrants, Christine Jones, and Richard Backus, all very good and probably the reason I kept watching the show.

 

[j swift]

I finished my deep dive, and the headline impression is that the backstory of going off air, retooling, and renaming, is unfortunately more interesting that the show itself, in either incarnation. 

I read this thread, the tumblr weekly and monthly summaries and, watched the limited videos available on YT.  It is interesting to note that SOD's final L&F summery and final FRFP summery both included commentary about the poor acting because one of the obvious limitations of my deep dive was that I was unaware of how the performances or the recasts effected the experience.

I am a fan of Lemay's writing and there is an obvious change between his turn as headwriter, versus when Tom King took over.  It is a matter of preference, but I enjoy the type of drawing room drama employed by Lemay which includes a lot of character study, as opposed to the mystery and suspense of King's writing.  The key difference is in the romantic relationships.  Lemay uses longing and internal strife that keeps couple apart, wherein King's plots include more character agency in scheming to keep true love from reaching its potential.  Lemay's characters deal with internal conflicts about perceived status or feeling unworthy, whereas King's lovers deal with amnesia, fake ODs, and gang warfare.  It is a big tonal shift.

Austin/Amy - first it is hard to imagine Rod Arrants, who I recall as the perma-curled action hero Travis from SFT, portraying an alcoholic artist forced to work as a stockbroker.  Bohemian pursuits were out of step with the times of 1977 and I would have expected an artist to be addicted to hallucinogenics, not alcohol, so it all seemed a bit antiquated.  Someone in this thread noted that Amy may not have been planned to be so sympathetic, and that is why Laurie turned so conniving, but as a result the character is sort of boring and redundant to the other heroines on the show.  Then, in the reboot, Austin is not only never stressed about his addiction, but he is completely absent from helping his friend and sponsor Lester Saxton when he falls off the wagon.

Bonus info - Rod married the Megan 1.0 (Patricia Estrin} as it says in the article upthread they met onset after both were single parents, and then they divorced in 1992

Megan/Connie/Rhett aka Bill - this triangle starts under Lemay with promise, Megan feels societal and familial pressure to marry Desmond (who gets totally dicked over in both incarnations) but falls in love with Rhett.  Then, in the reboot, Connie is suddenly given all the control because she's pregnant.  She gets to tell Megan to breakup with Bill and she somehow manipulates her to never tell Bill why they needed to break up the day before they were supposed to get married.  At least there was some bow to the times that Bill offered to co-parent without getting married to Connie, but of course she manipulates him into marriage.  My main complaint is that Megan and Bill, who are smart, work together daily, but never share their suspicions about Connie whom neither of them like.  Their motives for not discussing their feelings are only because the plot demands it, not because it is logical.

Laurie/Jason/Desmond - this was a highlight to me because I like two schemers in a relationship.  I like that Jason understands that his job, for which he is talented, could be gone in a minute if his more privileged but less talented rival got his way.  Unlike, other characters played by Richard Backus, Jason was layered.  He wasn't just a con artist out to gain wealth, there was also lingering resentment about the confines of social class.  I was also amused throughout that Desmond is wealthy handsome guy, but he is everybody's second choice and, as a result, he gets a lot of abuse and disrespect.

Bonus info - I have no reference for the quality of how actor David Knapp played Desmond,, but you have to feel bad for a character who had to cancel two romantic trips due to being cuckolded by two different women.  The poor guy just wanted to get some nookie outside of living with his girlfriend's mother(s) and he couldn't catch a break.  After an extensive google search, it appears that he is not the same David Knapp who later sued the Boy Scouts for the right to be a gay Boy Scout Troupe leader because this actor died in 2006 before most of that litigation was complete, but I would welcome confirmation if anyone has additional information.

The end - certainly the silliest part of reading the summaries is that in the last few weeks everything gets wrapped up in a pretty bow.  It is a lesson for those who want a soap to end on a final note rather than a cliffhanger.  Suddenly bad guys like Lee the car thieving thug and Roy the two-timing psychiatrist turn sympathetic.  Connie and Laurie who connived and schemed to maintain their relationships are exposed.  Tessa who might have been paralyzed can walk, Paco the ex-gangbanger can read, and Megan and Bill find their way back to each other.  It may be because the serial was so short, but tying things up feels rushed and unsatisfying. 

I would watch the first episodes of both incarnations if they became available, out of curiosity, but I have no interest in watching the rest of the series.

Edited November 27, 2021 by j swift

[Nicholas Blair]

You have to feel sorry for David Knapp, because Desmond, while never getting to be a villain or a schemer, never got to be a hero or romantic lead either. Desmond was rich, he was rather good-looking without much sex appeal, and he was dull. The actor simply played the part straightforwardly as it was written without figuring out a way to make either the character or himself interesting in spite of the script.

 

[danfling]

I had been thinking that Richard Baccus had appeared on Another World as Ted Bancroft #2 prior to being on For Richer/For Poorer.   Did I get confused about the order.    (He was really good on Ryan's Hope and should not have been written off.)

I had forgotten that David Knapp was on the show.   I remember that he was on All My Children in 1984 in a day role.

 

Does anyone know what Tom Happer is now doing?   I heard that he was the owner of a bed-and-breakfast inn in New England, but I do not know if that is correct.    (He had appeared on Dark Shadows near that show's run as the grandson of Thayer David )