Thanks Paul, I wonder if AN has ever talked about that project in any of her interviews. She must have touched upon it in the Archive interview with Marlena de la Connie, I'll have to go back and check.

Thanks for the link Jack. Oh man, I'm like aching reading that. I think this show is one that would have looked great in Filmlook, dirty Bourbon St., late night, voodoo, supernatural, sex... and shot in Queens to boot (at KA where I attended a taping of Cosby a couple of years later). We would have had another NY soap. And if only for a little while.

That sounds like interesting stuff. They did have a TV version of From Here to Eternity around 1979 didn't they?

The police show could have revolutionized TV...

Did Peyton Place have any imitators?

Edited November 10, 201015 yr by CarlD2

I know all the soaps shoot on tape, but being as though I'm not too familiar with the technical stuff, what makes it so hard for them to be shot on film like other shows? If they were shot on film, would it really give them that big of a difference as far as visually?

I know all the soaps shoot on tape, but being as though I'm not too familiar with the technical stuff, what makes it so hard for them to be shot on film like other shows? If they were shot on film, would it really give them that big of a difference as far as visually?

Yes, there would be a considerable visual difference. In your mind's eye, compare Cheers (film) to The Cosby Show (tape), or Family Matters (film) to Full House (tape). But the main concerns are time and especially cost. With soaps running five days a week, 52 weeks a year, splicing and editing film would be entirely too time consuming and shooting on film itself, way too expensive. Tape is less expensive and easier to edit. Of course it wasn't always as inexpensive, but still more practical than film as back in the day the masters were reused/taped over which is why many pre-'80s classic episodes are lost. Shooting digitally as GL and I believe ATWT began to implement is currently the most cost-effective method and more shows will turn to that as the quality of digital recording steadily improves.

Yes, there would be a considerable visual difference. In your mind's eye, compare Cheers (film) to The Cosby Show (tape), or Family Matters (film) to Full House (tape). But the main concerns are time and especially cost. With soaps running five days a week, 52 weeks a year, splicing and editing film would be entirely too time consuming and shooting on film itself, way too expensive. Tape is less expensive and easier to edit. Of course it wasn't always as inexpensive, but still more practical than film as back in the day the masters were reused/taped over which is why many pre-'80s classic episodes are lost. Shooting digitally as GL and I believe ATWT began to implement is currently the most cost-effective method and more shows will turn to that as the quality of digital recording steadily improves.

Thanks, I've always wondered that. When you flip through the channels you can easily tell when its a soap opera fom any other show!

Thanks, I've always wondered that. When you flip through the channels you can easily tell when its a soap opera fom any other show!

A crucial element that sets the look of daytime soaps apart from other genres has always been the lighting used...typically soaps are lit by extremely bright, sometimes harsh lights from above that provide a flood of beaming illumination onto the actors and sets. This production technique began to change only following the 1973 debut of Y&R, which was celebrated for John Conboy's innovative low, dark, moody lighting and diverse camera angles that were more in line with the styles of prime time and film. It is ironic how now in 2010 Y&R has abandoned its signature look and is now lit more brightly than a supernova!

That's the Rauch "production values."

Which is so funny because his AW looked like it belonged on PBS, like a dark and moody UK series.

Here's an article I found about the proposed spinoffs for Passions:

NBC PLANS A PASSIONS SPIN-OFF-AND MORE

TV GUIDE

In a sprawling and unprecedented deal for a soap auteur, NBC hired James E. Reilly, creator of it's wacky daytime hit, Passions, to develop a prime-time series, a prime-time movie and a Saturday-morning-spin-off of Passions, tentatively titled Harmony High. NBC Studios president Ted Harbert tells TV GUIDE he has been massaging an expanded pact with the reclusive Reilly since last fall. "Jim is a one-of-a-kind creative force with an imagination that is the most amazing thing I've ever witnessed," Harbert says. "We're making this deal to get that imagination into other parts of the NBC schedule."

And to keep Reilly from straying. The scribe's new contract lays to rest months of rumors that he might go elsewhere to create prime-time shows (among the networks reportedly interested in Reilly was the kid-friendly WB). And his deal won't come as good news to Ken Corday, executive producer of NBC's other soap, Days of Our Lives, who had wanted the network to launch a Days spin-off Salem High and had been talking up the project in soap magazines hoping to rouse fan interest.

It's too soon to tell which -- if any -- of Passions's characters will be seen on Harmony High, but Reilly says the likelihood of cast crossovers is excellent. "I can see the two shows being very symbiotic," notes Reilly, who wants to use the spin-off "to develop a young fan base that will move on to Passions as it gets older. It's a good investment for the future."

As for the prime-time projects, "they won't be copies of Passions." says Reilly. "But they will have quirky twists and an element of soap." Adds Harbert: "Jim understands our need for new and different ideas. I don't expect he'll bring us things we've seen before."

Planning a spin-off is tricky because Passions faces a casting crisis: Most of its stars signed three-year deals when the soap started production in the spring of '99. and those contracts will all lapse before Harmony High is expected to hit the air. (If Reilly's pilot quickly gets a green light, the show could air by January, but it will probably debut mid to late 2002.)

Since Passions's younger stars are the ones most likely to defect, Reilly plans to add more teens to the show, then move some or all to the spin-off. (He reminds us that there are three kids in the show's dysfunctional Crane family whom viewers have heard about but never seen.) Another challenge: The supernatural Passions is about as weighty as a Styrofoam peanut, but Harmony will have to have educational value in order to meet FCC requirements for children's programming.

As for the prime-time projects, "they won't be copies of Passions." says Reilly. "But they will have quirky twists and an element of soap."

I always thought that if Passions had went primetime they should of done a prequel/televised version of "HIDDEN PASSIONS", the book released around 2001 I believe.

Even years after these ideas didn't go through, they also had an online soap called "The Cove" planned, but they scrapped it and went with Coastal Dreams which also starred Passions' Danica Stewart.

Edited November 17, 201015 yr by passionsfan

I know this about proposed soaps but wasn't rumors floating that Mason and Julia was heading to Another World after Santa Barbara was cancelled in 1993 or was it Days?

Edited November 19, 201015 yr by Dr Neil Curtis

Well, this one actually happened, but was short-lived. It's Personal Problems, the "avant-garde black soap opera" created by playwright/screenwriter/director Bill Gunn, who also made the cult horror classic Ganja & Hess, and wrote Hal Ashby's incredible film The Landlord with Beau Bridges, Diana Sands, Lee Grant, and Pearl Bailey. Gunn showed several episodes of Personal Problems, each around 60-90 mins, on PBS stations in NY and Massachusetts in the early '80s. It is impossible to find, existing mostly in a few colleagues' private collections and university archives, but portions of it were screened here in New York earlier this year, where I among others saw it. C&Ped from another board, paraphrasing:

From what I understand, it was either one or two very old VHS tapes from The Kitchen, apparently transferred to digi-beta or something; the tapes are apparently no longer available due to The Kitchen beginning the process of overhauling and transferring its supply. We saw "Volume 1 and 2." Google has the University of Delaware listing other volumes, possibly only available on audio. Info is scant and inconsistent - when BAM first prepped the screening, we believed we'd only be watching an hour and forty minutes; instead we got 160. I don't know how much of the program was shown on PBS, but that's how it got funding and that's where some of it, at least, did screen.

As for what we got, Personal Problems really is like if you mashed-up, say, [Nic Roeg and Donald Cammell's] Performance and 1970s-era Days of our Lives. The narrative is experimental, fragmented and non-linear, there's all sorts of moments of lyricism and abstraction, but the plot is pure soap. That's not a bad thing. Vertamae Grosvenor as Johnnie Mae, the nurse working at Harlem Hospital (where it shot inside), is the central focus, and she could easily be Susan Lucci and Erica Kane in the early years, before Erica became rich and a glamour goddess. Like Lucci's character on All My Children, Johnnie Mae is introduced as living in modest surroundings she disdains, wanting more out of her lot in life, wanting to pursue her poetry instead of working round the clock in the ER. She cheats on her surly husband, subway train driver Charles (the great Walter Cotton) with a vaguely obnoxious musician who gives her a taste of the high life, and lets her 'lean on' instead of always being leaned on by her friends and family. She longs to leave NY and go back to South Carolina, as her friend is doing, yet she and her girlfriends seem to also enjoy moments of living above their means in these sort of rough, prototypical Candace Bushnell-esque cocktail klatches. It's a lot of self-delusion - Johnnie Mae puts on a gauzy dress and a floppy hat and prances along the banks of the Hudson with her lover, but at the end of the day it's back to her tiny apartment which is housing her, Charles, his father, and her ne'er-do-well half-brother and his wife, who have run into trouble with the law and have yet to retrieve their child, who was left behind in California with Social Services.

There is some occasional, fourth-wall-breaking direct address where someone (Gunn?) puts Johnnie Mae and others through a Q&A about their feelings and motivations. And we never figure out when a scene takes place where Johnnie Mae finds Charles in bed with his own mistress, but judging by the end of Volume 2 it must have come before the events of that episode. The script was apparently totally improvised by the actors after discussion with Gunn and playwright Ishmael Reed, and there are some hilarious moments, including a scene where Johnnie Mae suggests Charles' get-rich-quick scheme sounds like Sidney Poitier's in A Raisin In The Sun, but no one in the household can remember the name of the film, and her father-in-low is convinced it's Cabin In The Sky and says he knows every film Diana Sands ever made. It's a long, languid riff, but priceless.

Ishmael Reed also turns up as an obnoxious upper-middle-class businessman who voted for Reagan, arguing with a white radical (played by one of the production staff) and citing that any Hollywood actor who can bring his own monkey to the White House (from Reagan's Bedtime For Bonzo) has his vote. Later, he appears again at a posh party Johnnie Mae attends with her lover, where the disparate stories (just like on daytime) begin to intersect. While spending a night in jail, Johnnie Mae's brother has spoken to another guy in the cellblock about getting 'an introduction' to mysterious crime boss "Mr. Damian" (played by Bill Gunn), who, unbeknownst to Johnnie Mae, is also at this cocktail party. At the party, Johnnie Mae's relationship with her musician lover unravels as it is clear she is out of place in the glossy, plasticine world he prefers, despite her love of the finer things, and she is drawn back to Charles and her home. I don't know where the story went from there (or maybe just would have gone), but I'm dying to find out. As a stand-alone, closed piece, however, it also pretty much works.

I forgot to ask about PP's potential future availability but given the truly home-video quality of the picture and sound I have my doubts.

Edited November 19, 201015 yr by Vee

Wow! Thank you so much for this, Vee. I had never heard of this. It sounds like everything I wish that soaps made outside of corporate resources could be. Different, yet still traditional in ways which enhance character and story. Full of interesting and unique people who say what you don't often hear on a soap. I love some of what you described. I wish that websoaps could take this type of approach.

I hope that someday Gunn's major work will be properly recognized in DVD or Blu-Ray release, and that with those more prestigious films, like Ganja & Hess or The Landlord, the Personal Problems episodes - some of which are apparently audio-only, or maybe only the soundtrack survives - will be released as a supplement. Most of the footage apparently came from do-writer and playwright Ishmael Reed's collection.

Ganja & Hess got a decent DVD release a few years ago, but I'm hoping the Criterion Collection will do something with it and The Landlord down the line. Sometimes they do box sets of obscure filmmakers, including all sorts of ancillary material, which Personal Problems would certainly fit the description of. The problem is that the PP episodes are horribly degraded and made for nil besides, and I'm not sure any company would feel comfortable releasing it as is. The footage was taken from Beta or VHS tapes and was extremely dark and rough, basically done on home video with slight post work to add music. The budget was near zero and the focus seemed largely on the script and actors, which is appropriate, but in terms of production values there really weren't much in the way of that. The sound was also terrible. But they managed any number of gorgeous, artistic tableaus in the city, especially of Central Park and the Hudson at sunset. They captured a lot of naturalistic scenes despite the budget being about fifty cents. The cutting and abstract expertise at work, the gritty realism still felt more modern and relevant than most current soaps. In this sense, you're right, it is like websoaps - terrible budget - but the difference is that most of the current websoaps take pains to try and pretend they are just another soap with the same budget and time dispensation, and just come off feeling very low-rent and desperate (see: The Bay). Whereas PP's audio/technical issues are completely without pretension towards otherwise. It had soap trappings and content, but its pacing, rhythms and structures were utterly avant-garde. The story was non-linear, there was a lot of direct address (interviews with the man behind the camera, usually Bill Gunn), weird interludes, etc. No terribly obvious setpiece like The Bay's engagement party in a bar with no place to hang the boom mike.

Here's more on Gunn and his films from BAM Cinematek. Please note in the photo at the link for Personal Problems, in case you're curious - fourth from right in the second row (with the braids) is Vertamae Grosvener, who played Johnnie Mae, while I believe the man second from right is Walter Cotten, who played Charles. Also pretty sure that's Bill Gunn kneeling in the center of the picture in a white sweater.

One more edit: Interestingly enough, I believe Ishmael Reed has said that Terry McMillan was part of the cast of his "radio version" of Personal Problems. Information on all this is extremely inconsistent; he calls it a film, but it's a series, while others have said it never aired, but it's been confirmed it aired on some PBS affiliates. Likewise, Gunn's first film, Stop, is widely touted as unreleased, but when it was screened at BAM a visiting cast member informed us that it was briefly released in the South, to disastrous results given its interracial and bisexual psychedelic content. A lot of this stuff is lost to time and shrouded in mists.

Edited November 19, 201015 yr by Vee

From the October 1972 Daytime TV (Sterling House Inc). I know most of these have already been mentioned, just typing them out to see if there are any you hadn't heard of or know more about.

POSSIBLE NEW SERIALS

In the works, but not yet set, are several daytime serials: DOCTOR'S WIVES, based on the Columbia movie of the same name. YESTERDAY'S CHILD, TOMORROW'S ADULT, written by Winifred Wolfe and produced by Mary Harris. THE HEART OF JULIET JONES, based on the popular comic strip, produced by Roy Winsor. A WORLD OF DREAMS, by Michael Andrews. THE ADVENTURES OF MARY WORTH, based on the comic strip. MIRRORS OF DARKNESS, being produced by Dan Curtis.

Thanks Carl.

A World of Dreams and Mirrors Of Darkness are new to me.Juliet Jones was first proposed back in the 50's and I think I mentioned that version earlier in the thread

I also came across a proposed NBC nightime soap called The Duffield Story in 65 about an actress.