44 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I was replying to a post about '80s GL, not those stories.

To be honest I never felt like Erica's stories were inflicted on AMC (not until the last decade of the show, when it had many, many problems) and the few that were Emmy bait were mostly well done, but that's a whole other thread.

I think the main reason why Erica Kane's stories never felt inflicted upon AMC was because AMC itself had what Michael Malone once described to SOD or SOW as a "bright, cartoonish quality."  It always was in its' DNA to be a little broad and campy.

Here's the thing about Reva (and what I think TPTB had forgotten after a certain point):  whenever it came to her emotions, Reva Shayne Lewis was an all-or-nothing gal.  If she loved you, she loved the hell out of you; and if she didn't....!  Her circumstances, therefore, NEEDED to be mundane, run-of-the-mill soap opera - like they were when she married H.B. and when she miscarried their baby - or else she becomes too much for the audience to take. 

That's why stories like Ghost Reva, Amish Reva, Clone Reva, Princess Reva and so on didn't work, IMO.  Not because they were too larger-than-life for GL, but because they were for a character who was already larger-than-life herself.

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Khan

6 minutes ago, Khan said:

Here's the thing about Reva (and what I think TPTB had forgotten after a certain point):  whenever it came to her emotions, Reva Shayne Lewis was an all-or-nothing gal.  If she loved you, she loved the hell out of you; and if she didn't....!  Her circumstances, therefore, NEEDED to be mundane, run-of-the-mill soap opera - like they were when she married H.B. and when she miscarried their baby - or else she becomes too much for the audience to take. 

That's why stories like Ghost Reva, Amish Reva, Clone Reva, Princess Reva and so on didn't work, IMO.  Not because they were too larger-than-life for GL, but because they were for a character who was already larger-than-life herself.

That makes a lot of sense. 

I think that may also be why Clone Reva was (for me) the best of that batch, as the aspect of Reva learning she was replaced, and then having to interact with her clone, including watching her clone die, did have some human element amidst the absurdity.

Some stories, like Time Traveling Reva, I still don't even get the point of. 

21 minutes ago, kalbir said:

It was the combination of Roger's return and Robert Calhoun becoming EP that got GL to finally hit it's stride after some really bad years.

Even with KZ still in the cast, GL finally had in Robert Calhoun what it hadn't had since Allen Potter left in '83: an EP with a real sense of story.

Unfortunately, Calhoun had the same problem that all EP's at GL had once production moved from Chelsea to EUE/Screen Gems: godawful-looking sets.  Seriously, from, like, 1987/88 onward, very few GL sets were all that attractive to me or made any sense at all, lol.

25 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think that may also be why Clone Reva was (for me) the best of that batch, as the aspect of Reva learning she was replaced, and then having to interact with her clone, including watching her clone die, did have some human element amidst the absurdity.

Exactly.  As absurd as the premise was - even the suggestion that Josh would agree to clone Reva because he was so upset over her second presumed death was so out-of-character and a huge leap for viewers to take - there still were opportunities for the audience to connect with the storyline, and with Reva, emotionally.

But, as James Harmon Brown and Barbara Esensten admitted after leaving the show, the Rapid Aging Serum became a bridge too far for the folks watching at home.  Leave out that plot device, and I think the story could have worked (or, worked as well as any story about human cloning could work, lol).

25 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Some stories, like Time Traveling Reva, I still don't even get the point of. 

I don't get it either, but I would imagine that Paul Rauch championed the idea, likely because of a similar story that he had done in the '80's with OLTL's Viki. 

As a matter of fact, if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of Viki and Reva, you'd see that, under Paul Rauch's care, both characters were at the center of some very OTT stories.  However, the difference between Viki's stories (Heaven, Eterna, Wild West, etc) and Reva's - and the reason why Viki's stories worked where Reva's didn't - was that Viki (that is, when she was Viki and not Niki) was not a larger-than-life heroine who wore her emotions on her proverbial sleeve the way Reva always did. 

And that's absolutely the secret to making an outside-the-box type of story like time travel or cloning work, IMO: it has to be told through a character who isn't so larger-than-life that they're actually battling for attention with the outrageousness of the plot.  (Case in point: Dr. Marlena Evans Brady).

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Khan

5 minutes ago, Khan said:

I don't get it either, but I would imagine that Paul Rauch championed the idea, likely because of a similar story that he had done in the '80's with OLTL's Viki. 

As a matter of fact, if you were to do a side-by-side comparison of Viki and Reva, you'd see that, under Paul Rauch's care, both characters were at the center of some very OTT stories.  However, the difference between Viki's stories (Heaven, Eterna, Wild West, etc) and Reva's - and the reason why the former character's stories worked where the latter character's didn't - was that Viki (that is, when she was Viki and not Niki) was not a larger-than-life heroine who wore her emotions on her proverbial sleeve the way Reva always did.  And that's absolutely the secret to making an outside-the-box type of story like time travel or cloning work, IMO: it has to be told through a character whose emotions aren't so huge that they're battling for attention with the outrageousness of the plot.

I hadn't thought of the Wild West story (I had just been thinking of PC getting some buzz at the time - although their time travel story may have been after GL's was already in the works). Makes sense. I think that story also just was a more natural fit for the Buchanans due to their Western roots. Casting Shari Headley and having her play a slave...not so much.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I was replying to a post about '80s GL, not those stories.

To be honest I never felt like Erica's stories were inflicted on AMC (not until the last decade of the show, when it had many, many problems) and the few that were Emmy bait were mostly well done, but that's a whole other thread.

Well, darn, silly me, totally wrong calendar! Erica, inflicted only in the sense that they were like standalone special episodes. 

I now have caught up on this thread & my calendar blunder sparked one helluva great riff!

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I haven't religiously watched '80s GL, but I don't feel like Josh was ever much of a strong character in his own right. I know the conventional wisdom is that he was trapped by Reva, but other than his pairing with Harley, he never thrived without her. He could have easily been written out from 93-95.

Aside from a few stories, the template that made Josh a mainstay on the show was the pairing with Reva, marrying the wrong woman, and going back to Reva.

At least in the last few years he got some stories out of the norm for him, like being a minister. 

Onscreen I never felt like Reva was heavily catered to due to demanding fans. The character was called out and suffered losses. Admittedly I was not exactly glued to '00s GL, but I never felt like the fan push and resulting show caving was as obvious as it was with Danny/Michelle, or Harley, or Bradley Cole.

I'd also argue that Reva was never really the worst part of those eras - some of her stories don't work or can be boring (like Maeve/Kyle/Reva), but compared to Infinity or Claire has a psycho tumor or Simon/Jessie or Calla's VD shame or whatever else was going on...

However, I can see why people see her as a figurehead of the show's decline.

I have to agree re: Josh. I'm not saying RN couldn't have done more, but the writers never challenged who Josh was either. Even Ross, who's scoundrel days were as far behind him as Josh's, could occasionally revisit his pissy, ambitious self. Or contrast with Billy, who flourishes when untethered to Josh and Reva in the early '90's. 

Personally, I think GL only went out and got Robert back because Jordan Clarke had to leave. Josh literally shows up with notBilly Geoffrey Scott. I don't even think Josh's name was brought up at Billy and Vanessa's wedding (it probably was, 'cause they'd still do things like that back in the day). But he's suddenly on hand for Dylan's wedding to Julie.

The thing about Reva was that she only drives her story. It may involve all the Lewises, but it's contained. Rewatching '90 and '91 especially, at some point I realized Roger was driving story for nearly the entire canvas. Maybe it's just my perception, or maybe it's some kind of writer bias, where women mainly drive their love story---I don't know. 

Like they say---heavy is the head that wears the crown. If you're the face of the show, you get the credit and the blame.

11 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Personally, I think GL only went out and got Robert back because Jordan Clarke had to leave. Josh literally shows up with notBilly Geoffrey Scott. I don't even think Josh's name was brought up at Billy and Vanessa's wedding (it probably was, 'cause they'd still do things like that back in the day). But he's suddenly on hand for Dylan's wedding to Julie.

The thing about Reva was that she only drives her story. It may involve all the Lewises, but it's contained. Rewatching '90 and '91 especially, at some point I realized Roger was driving story for nearly the entire canvas. Maybe it's just my perception, or maybe it's some kind of writer bias, where women mainly drive their love story---I don't know. 

Like they say---heavy is the head that wears the crown. If you're the face of the show, you get the credit and the blame.

That makes sense about why Robert was asked back, especially as JFP didn't want Kim Zimmer back. If they hadn't lost so many fan favorites, I don't think he would have been asked back. 

Roger was such a brilliant character because he could easily drive multiple stories just through his presence and how people on the canvas felt about him. I don't know if GL had a woman along those lines. ATWT did with Lucinda in that same period. 

1 hour ago, Khan said:

I don't get it either, but I would imagine that Paul Rauch championed the idea, likely because of a similar story that he had done in the '80's with OLTL's Viki. 

Now that you mention it, I think I recall Paul Raunch telling Michael Logan that they had purchased the Time Travel storyline from a consultant, I want to say a novelist, but I may be very off and thinking of some other story from that period. 

There was one moment during the Time Travel story I really enjoyed. During the Civil War, Shayne's doppleganger went off to fight and was killed. Zimmer mourning the loss of Billy Kay felt very real even if Kay's character wasn't her child, just a doppleganger.

I agree that Raunch was recycling a lot of story elements from his OLTL stint. I would add San Cristobal and Mendorra to your comparison list. 

2 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

Now that you mention it, I think I recall Paul Raunch telling Michael Logan that they had purchased the Time Travel storyline from a consultant, I want to say a novelist, but I may be very off and thinking of some other story from that period. 

There was one moment during the Time Travel story I really enjoyed. During the Civil War, Shayne's doppleganger went off to fight and was killed. Zimmer mourning the loss of Billy Kay felt very real even if Kay's character wasn't her child, just a doppleganger.

I agree that Raunch was recycling a lot of story elements from his OLTL stint. I would add San Cristobal and Mendorra to your comparison list. 

There is one more part of that otherwise odd inane story that I simply adored & that is me and getting to have all those lovely costumes, which I happen to have pictures of. You can see them on my IG acct. It's under shallotpeel . I also have AW Lumina Ball, A wedding at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens & a Halloween, & some fantasy scenes. 

45 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Roger was such a brilliant character because he could easily drive multiple stories just through his presence and how people on the canvas felt about him. 

Roger was such a big part of the early 1990s golden era. MZ acting and the writing all came together. MZ/Roger had such a presence but I didn't feel either the actor or the character took over the canvas.

MZ/Roger should get his flowers for being the OG and GOAT of CBS soap opera villains. He ran so JR and Victor could walk.

A number of July 1980 episodes were just uploaded to Youtube. Most of them have been up for years on another channel, but the first I'm posting was only up in part and the second one isn't up at all.

 

I hadn’t seen this clip of Nia Long talking about her time/experience on GL before. She’s very complimentary, basically saying that because she did GL, she was prepared to do everything else she did after and that it was her “college experience” because she landed the role of Kat just after finishing high school. She also alludes to how poorly soap actors are paid and how it was a struggle living in a very expensive city like NYC. 

I was always so proud of her when she left GL and started to pop up in so many things in the 90’s and after. Melissa Hayden said in an interview a few years ago that the producers were not very nice to Nia at GL when she would ask to do outside projects (assume it was JFP, the only EP she worked for during her time at GL with the exception of Calhoun’s final few mounts at the start of her stint), but Nia sure got the last laugh and longevity in her career after she left. 
 

 

After all this elevated talk & intelligent discussion, you may be appalled at what I am about to post. But, it's all Alan Locher's fault. This is what he posted on Twi/X early this morning, I have challenged him to come up with a picture of Grant Aleksander when he was on AMC. Alec McIintyre was constantly wearing this itty bitty speedo & diving in the pool. I'll say this for JWS for a preacher's kid, he sure did have a body!!!

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by Contessa Donatella
more more more

9 hours ago, P.J. said:

I have to agree re: Josh. I'm not saying RN couldn't have done more, but the writers never challenged who Josh was either. Even Ross, who's scoundrel days were as far behind him as Josh's, could occasionally revisit his pissy, ambitious self. Or contrast with Billy, who flourishes when untethered to Josh and Reva in the early '90's. 

Interestingly enough I think the only regime to try and challenge Josh as a character was Conboy/Weston with the Josh/Shayne car accident storyline. Though the execution was wonky with the baseball obsession (which I feel came out of nowhere), I think it allowed RN to sink his teeth into some meaty material and he was able step to the forefront and be in the spotlight for once (plus he and Reva were together at the time).

Honestly the only way I see GL could have challenged Josh as character is his relationships with his children, Marah and Shayne, and him seeing how in some instances he might mirror HB as a father.

Edited August 21, 20241 yr by MichaelGL