I think Mark... the reason is that many soap viewers don't have the intelligence to connect their own dots.

I think soap viewers have plenty of intelligence. I think the people who run most of the soaps assume viewers have no intelligence. And the people who run most of the soaps have no real idea of how to write soaps. There's no point in trying to connect a dot when there's nothing to connect it with. That's how most of the stories are. They are made up as they go along. The people at Y&R may realize that they can get away with this type of writing because it is considered highbrow or because the viewers are considered rubes who just don't get things and if they twist themselves into knots trying to analyze or interpret, then everything will work out.

Of course, I know it went to sh*t within weeks...but for a brief shining moment I had hopes that the show would treat us as smart

They think we're stupid with the constant retcons and dumb storytelling. They're very manipulative with it too. Like Kevin's storage box thing. They can say they're using "history" while in fact they're using it to totally rewrite Tom Fisher and Deacon as characters, two average joe sleaze balls that never had any connection to the art world or any significant taste, nor would someone from the sophisticated art world give Tom Fisher a second look. It;s heavily plot driven writing that twists history and character histories to suit a plot point regarding art of all things, and it's bombing big time.

Again, though, I am in no way asserting that Y&R is doing that now! But I keep hoping....

I stopped hoping after the show didn't get better over the summer. Now, it's time for behind the scenes changes to happen. If MAB must say and supervise it, fine, but get rid of Sheffer, Hamner, and trim that writing staff in half. Of course, ideally, there would be a thoughtful transition where the next regime comes in and is intent on wrapping up all the crappy storylines of this regime and has written some carefully planned long-term story projections for their first set of stories without any gimmicy retcons, one-cote phycho villains, bland characters, unrootable characters, and weak women.

I think soap viewers have plenty of intelligence. I think the people who run most of the soaps assume viewers have no intelligence. And the people who run most of the soaps have no real idea of how to write soaps. There's no point in trying to connect a dot when there's nothing to connect it with. That's how most of the stories are. They are made up as they go along. The people at Y&R may realize that they can get away with this type of writing because it is considered highbrow or because the viewers are considered rubes who just don't get things and if they twist themselves into knots trying to analyze or interpret, then everything will work out.

Agreed, they think viewers are stupid and will accept anything. Again, hence Deacon's sudden interest in art and Tom's sudden art laced backstory, which we know is out of character for him.

We shouldn't be held to connect anything and make excuses for why it's not happening when it's not in the writing or even being teased at in the writing. It's basic soap opera to tease your audience as to what's really happening, not give it all away, but tease them.

Stuff coming out of left field with very little explanation as to why is not soap opera writing.

Edited September 12, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

How are viewers supposed to figure this out when the show itself seems to have no real idea? How many times have they shown Adam gleefully terrorize Ashley and then express remorse and say she wasn't supposed to be the target?

Have the people at this show ever really let us see great examples of slowly unfolding clues? Or do they just make it up as they go along?

Viewers are not only asked to assume the show keeps track of these stories, but also expected to assume that drastic character changes and uneven pacing is all part of some master plan.

Jana gets headaches and then it never happened. Billy and Sharon have an affair and now they don't even know the other exists. Jill works in a nail salon for no apparent reason other than asking viewers to laugh at her. Katherine tells Jill she now realizes she never loved Phillip and she took him from Jill, and this scene is never followed up on. Amber plans to write a screenplay about Katherine's life then drops it just as Phillip's return would make it the most interesting. Victor brings MJ to town for revenge plans that are never specified. For five minutes Abby mourns the death of the man who raised her then grins her way through life. Deacon is dragged over from B&B and viewers have no real knowledge of him other than being sleazy and inexplicably being obsessed with Amber and being a master of art thievery. Sharon steals or doesn't steal at random. Nick goes between Sharon and Phyllis at random. Noah wants to divorce himself from his parents yet disappears for months at a time. Rafe plans to expose Adam's crimes and instead completely forgets about his aunt as soon as he gets some Newman nads, and afterwards all but disappears.

Do the stories that do go on have slowly unpeeling onions, or is it just someone cutting a few shavings off an onion, leaving it, and then returning much later to cut a few more shavings? The stories that do go on forever, like Ashley's pregnancy or the Shick/Phick mess, just seem to repeat themselves over and over, and the plot points which are dropped and then left hanging are too horrifying to want to think about. For instance, are we supposed to interpret that knowing Ashley's doctor sexually abuses female patients means we will eventually learn he has been molesting Ashley over and over?

Exactly.

Jana gets headaches and then it never happened.

I thought they explained that the reason she got them was because she was sensing Kevin was in trouble.......agian.

How are viewers supposed to figure this out when the show itself seems to have no real idea? How many times have they shown Adam gleefully terrorize Ashley and then express remorse and say she wasn't supposed to be the target?

Have the people at this show ever really let us see great examples of slowly unfolding clues? Or do they just make it up as they go along?

Viewers are not only asked to assume the show keeps track of these stories, but also expected to assume that drastic character changes and uneven pacing is all part of some master plan.

Jana gets headaches and then it never happened. Billy and Sharon have an affair and now they don't even know the other exists. Jill works in a nail salon for no apparent reason other than asking viewers to laugh at her. Katherine tells Jill she now realizes she never loved Phillip and she took him from Jill, and this scene is never followed up on. Amber plans to write a screenplay about Katherine's life then drops it just as Phillip's return would make it the most interesting. Victor brings MJ to town for revenge plans that are never specified. For five minutes Abby mourns the death of the man who raised her then grins her way through life. Deacon is dragged over from B&B and viewers have no real knowledge of him other than being sleazy and inexplicably being obsessed with Amber and being a master of art thievery. Sharon steals or doesn't steal at random. Nick goes between Sharon and Phyllis at random. Noah wants to divorce himself from his parents yet disappears for months at a time. Rafe plans to expose Adam's crimes and instead completely forgets about his aunt as soon as he gets some Newman nads, and afterwards all but disappears.

Do the stories that do go on have slowly unpeeling onions, or is it just someone cutting a few shavings off an onion, leaving it, and then returning much later to cut a few more shavings? The stories that do go on forever, like Ashley's pregnancy or the Shick/Phick mess, just seem to repeat themselves over and over, and the plot points which are dropped and then left hanging are too horrifying to want to think about. For instance, are we supposed to interpret that knowing Ashley's doctor sexually abuses female patients means we will eventually learn he has been molesting Ashley over and over?

Standing ovation.

For my money, that was the best part of early LML. "Why is Victor smelling lavender and cutting dolls?" "Why is John starting to act strangely in prison?" "Why is Brad pulling out old newspaper clippings about a murdered family in Ohio?" Man, I loooooooooooooved those days. Each day was about turning in to see this very character-based history-based mysteries unfold.

Yes yes yes yes yes.

Let's also keep in mind that the early part of the LML era had Alden and Smith and a staff full of writers who were there for a long time, understood these characters, and knew virtually everything there was to know about them. Y&R's current writing team can't say that to the same extent as when LML first started. There's a few yes, but not a lot of people who were apart of the "old guard."

Let's also keep in mind that the early part of the LML era had Alden and Smith and a staff full of writers who were there for a long time, understood these characters, and knew virtually everything there was to know about them.

Exactly. LML was successful at first because she was collaborating with Alden and Smith. With the exception of the reliquary story, I thought 2006 was brilliant (yes, even the Carmen stuff). But LML should never, ever, EVER have been made EP.

Y&R's current writing team can't say that to the same extent as when LML first started. There's a few yes, but not a lot of people who were apart of the "old guard."

Y&R needs Jack Smith back. YESTERDAY. He's being wasted as a script writer for B&B.

Let's also keep in mind that the early part of the LML era had Alden and Smith and a staff full of writers who were there for a long time, understood these characters, and knew virtually everything there was to know about them.

And she still sucked.

Exactly. LML was successful at first because she was collaborating with Alden and Smith. With the exception of the reliquary story, I thought 2006 was brilliant (yes, even the Carmen stuff). But LML should never, ever, EVER have been made EP.

Y&R needs Jack Smith back. YESTERDAY. He's being wasted as a script writer for B&B.

The heart is gone from Y&R. It's a plot driven mess. The characters are ill defined. We don't know why they're doing the things they're doing, and even if we did, I'm not sure we would care given the ridiculous plotting. A thorough house/cast cleaning needs to happen immediately. I agree. Bring back Smith. Pair him with one or several of the other long time writers who are still with the show. Get rid of Hogan, Hamner, Tom C., Lisa C., Paula C., and other writers who still don't "get" Y&R. And by all means, ax Paul Rauch. He's done nothing for Y&R during his tenure. bring back Ed Scott. Shake this show up, but with people who know, love and respect it.

I thought Monday's US Y&R was interesting.

Although Victoria's apparent sex with Deacon was "WTF", it was nice to see the walls crumble and to have Victoria explain some of her behavior. JT and Victoria are definitely more interesting this way, and it is interesting to have JT be the "good guy" in this twist. It may make him recall his feelings for Colleen...which will make her current dire straits all the more painful for him.

There is no question that Traci...and in this case, the actress' sincere emotion for Colleen...is a necessary and welcome part of this tale. What is lacking is that both Jack and Ashley were off screen. It would be more meaningful if Ashley were sane for a few minutes, and if she and Jack could rally around Traci. This is also a time for ghost Dad. I'm sure all of this is coming...but the absence of it suppresses some of the emotion.

It is also false to me that Kevin and Daniel (both of whom have a history with Colleen....especially Kevin) wouldn't set aside their current dramas for Coll.

That said, I was grateful for Kev's "moment of clarity" regarding Ryder.

The romantic reconnections of Kev/Jana, Daniel/Amber and Murphy/Katherine were all injections of the kind of "slow down, reconnect emotionally" that many of us have been crying for. BUT, tonally, I felt yesterday's episode was the wrong show to do it in. I kept feeling "Damn, how can you all be so preoccupied and selfish when Colleen is in trouble?" Rather than being "welcome relief", it felt more like a frustrating non-sequiture.

I am not enjoying a slow week of torture porn where Colleen is concerned. Watching her suffer at the hands of this increasingly disconnected psycho is not my idea of fun.

I'm glad Ashley isn't involved in the Colleen storyline. She had no problem siding with Victor over Colleen, she doesn't care about her family. To see her broken up over Colleen would seem false. Jack can't be involved because they want us to see Jack as being as much at fault in this as Victor, if not more.

I liked Daniel and Amber last year but over time, and especially after Deacon and the rape/not rape, I don't think I want them to stay together. Kevin and Jana I like together but not in a passionate sense.

It was nice to see Katherine and Murphy.

What's happening to Colleen reminds me of the weeks and weeks spent on Adam tormenting Ashley. Someone at the show seems to get off on this.

Edited September 15, 200916 yr by CarlD2

I thought Monday's US Y&R was interesting.

Although Victoria's apparent sex with Deacon was "WTF", it was nice to see the walls crumble and to have Victoria explain some of her behavior. JT and Victoria are definitely more interesting this way, and it is interesting to have JT be the "good guy" in this twist. It may make him recall his feelings for Colleen...which will make her current dire straits all the more painful for him.

Victoria sleeping with JT is kind of like karma for him. Remember he was sleeping with her when she was still married to Brad. If he suddenly falls in love with Colleen because Victoria slept Deacon that'll piss me off. It'll seem plot driven to me.

There is no question that Traci...and in this case, the actress' sincere emotion for Colleen...is a necessary and welcome part of this tale. What is lacking is that both Jack and Ashley were off screen. It would be more meaningful if Ashley were sane for a few minutes, and if she and Jack could rally around Traci. This is also a time for ghost Dad. I'm sure all of this is coming...but the absence of it suppresses some of the emotion.

It is also false to me that Kevin and Daniel (both of whom have a history with Colleen....especially Kevin) wouldn't set aside their current dramas for Coll.

That said, I was grateful for Kev's "moment of clarity" regarding Ryder.

The romantic reconnections of Kev/Jana, Daniel/Amber and Murphy/Katherine were all injections of the kind of "slow down, reconnect emotionally" that many of us have been crying for. BUT, tonally, I felt yesterday's episode was the wrong show to do it in. I kept feeling "Damn, how can you all be so preoccupied and selfish when Colleen is in trouble?" Rather than being "welcome relief", it felt more like a frustrating non-sequiture.

I am not enjoying a slow week of torture porn where Colleen is concerned. Watching her suffer at the hands of this increasingly disconnected psycho is not my idea of fun.

It's not suprising that not everyone is worried about Colleen. Everyone is isolated in their own storylines. EX: Daniel is having leagal trouble, but Phyllis is too busy trying to keep Nick (It's moments like that that make me forget that Daniel is Phyllis's son).

I'm suprised that Daniel even sent over a fruit basket to Lily.

I think soap viewers have plenty of intelligence. I think the people who run most of the soaps assume viewers have no intelligence. And the people who run most of the soaps have no real idea of how to write soaps. There's no point in trying to connect a dot when there's nothing to connect it with. That's how most of the stories are. They are made up as they go along. The people at Y&R may realize that they can get away with this type of writing because it is considered highbrow or because the viewers are considered rubes who just don't get things and if they twist themselves into knots trying to analyze or interpret, then everything will work out.

Absolute word! Viewers, IMO, are more educated than we've ever been and there aren't as many "housewives" sitting at home anymore. In actuality, it changes things but the writers still think they are writing for the antiquated typical soap viewer.

I thought they explained that the reason she got them was because she was sensing Kevin was in trouble.......agian.

They did...

Exactly. LML was successful at first because she was collaborating with Alden and Smith. With the exception of the reliquary story, I thought 2006 was brilliant (yes, even the Carmen stuff). But LML should never, ever, EVER have been made EP.

Y&R needs Jack Smith back. YESTERDAY. He's being wasted as a script writer for B&B.

I actually agree with you here. I thoroughly enjoyed the first part of her reign and then it all went to hell in a handbasket with them giving her so much power.

Victoria sleeping with JT is kind of like karma for him. Remember he was sleeping with her when she was still married to Brad. If he suddenly falls in love with Colleen because Victoria slept Deacon that'll piss me off. It'll seem plot driven to me.

If Colleen dies, I have a feeling that JT will reel out of control which will be a plot.