1 hour ago, Juliajms said:

^ I can see why people might have felt that way pre- 2016, although now reports are coming out about children being abused while in custody even before Trump was elected. 

 

Now I think we don't really know how things will shake out. What will America be like after Trump?  Now we know first hand (as opposed to various experiments and the historical record) that there are a lot of people who will just go along. 

 

On an international level I don't think our reputation will ever recover (as it never recovered after the Iraq fiasco). Many Americans, and many in the press, will be happy to put all of these things on Trump. If another Republican replaces Trump, many in the media will bend over backwards to remind us he isn't like Trump and he's a true conservative/Republican, etc. Many people have to believe that Trump is an outlier and is not a representation of things that have built in this country, and around the world, for years. It's easier to just focus on Trump as the same "just like Hitler" posts pop up (as they did for W, who is now seen as a dignified and noble man by many), or say things like, "Where is the UN to save us," even though the UN can't even save itself. 

56 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

On an international level I don't think our reputation will ever recover (as it never recovered after the Iraq fiasco). Many Americans, and many in the press, will be happy to put all of these things on Trump. If another Republican replaces Trump, many in the media will bend over backwards to remind us he isn't like Trump and he's a true conservative/Republican, etc. Many people have to believe that Trump is an outlier and is not a representation of things that have built in this country, and around the world, for years. It's easier to just focus on Trump as the same "just like Hitler" posts pop up (as they did for W, who is now seen as a dignified and noble man by many), or say things like, "Where is the UN to save us," even though the UN can't even save itself. 

Or anyone else. Look at how much ethnic cleansing has gone on under the watch of the UN. 

 

Trump is definitely a symptom and not the cause, but we know that he doesn't represent the majority. So I do wonder what it will be like to live with Trump voters, if we get a different kind of leader next time.  I don't think Trump is like Hitler, but I do think he might like to be and I do think ICE is dangerous.

 

 W was never like Hitler. He got a lot of people killed, but I don't really even understand the comparison.  I wasn't really connected to politics on the internet then, so I don't know what people were saying. I know some people thought his regime was dangerous and they were right.  He opened doors to surveillance on a level never seen before, but looking back, wasn't that kind of government surveillance in the age of tech inevitable? And yes, the response to Katrina was racist, but I'm not sure W understood that at the time.  What Trump did to Puerto Rico was absolutely a deliberate slap in the face.

Just now, Juliajms said:

W was never like Hitler. He got a lot of people killed, but I don't really even understand the comparison.  I wasn't really connected to politics on the internet then, so I don't know what people were saying. I know some people thought his regime was dangerous and they were right.  He opened doors to surveillance on a level never seen before, but looking back, wasn't that kind of government surveillance in the age of tech inevitable? And yes, the response to Katrina was racist, but I'm not sure W understood that at the time.  What Trump did to Puerto Rico was absolutely a deliberate slap in the face.

 

Much of that criticism ramped up through the propaganda surrounding the Iraq War and the vicious smearing of Democrats. There was surgical precision of these types of games from Karl Rove. Then the anti-equality legislation and the anti-abortion legislation started. I remember one of the big controversies surrounding W and Hitler was when Move On had ads comparing them (I think someone submitted the ads for a contest). There's one on Youtube but it's on a far right channel.

I see barely any coverage about this, but found this on Washington Post, an opinion piece about school shootings. Brought up yet again because of another school shooting TODAY in Noblesville, Indiana that left a teacher and student injured.

Edited May 25, 20187 yr by Wendy

6 minutes ago, Wendy said:

I see barely any coverage about this, but found this on Washington Post, an opinion piece about school shootings. Brought up yet again because of another school shooting TODAY in Noblesville, Indiana that left a teacher and student injured.

The teacher was the hero and saved lives and he didn’t even have a gun. Imagine if he did. He threw a basketball at the shooter and then tackled him.

2 minutes ago, JaneAusten said:

The teacher was the hero and saved lives and he didn’t even have a gun. Imagine if he did. He threw a basketball at the shooter and then tackled him.

 

Good for him. This is just getting so out of hand. But nothing will change as long as Congress is in bed with the NRA.

56 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

 

Much of that criticism ramped up through the propaganda surrounding the Iraq War and the vicious smearing of Democrats. There was surgical precision of these types of games from Karl Rove. Then the anti-equality legislation and the anti-abortion legislation started. I remember one of the big controversies surrounding W and Hitler was when Move On had ads comparing them (I think someone submitted the ads for a contest). There's one on Youtube but it's on a far right channel.

You (and I dare say many on this board) are way more informed about the W years than I am.  I was living in San Francisco when 9/11 happened.  I heard about it when I was riding on a bus to my job. I didn't even have a TV or a computer (other than at work) at the time.  I spent that whole year working constantly and it's all a blur and a huge blind spot for me. 

 

I had a TV by the time Katrina rolled around because I remember a distraught Celine Dion on Larry King wondering why we couldn't go get the people standing on rooftops begging to be saved. I hate even thinking back to that time because I had my head up my ass in so many ways.  I fell for the lies 100%. I remember when one of my Mexican born co-worker/friends said (concerning WMD's) "we don't know what they have", I replied "The government wouldn't lie to us".  My only defense is I was young and naive.

1 hour ago, Juliajms said:

You (and I dare say many on this board) are way more informed about the W years than I am.  I was living in San Francisco when 9/11 happened.  I heard about it when I was riding on a bus to my job. I didn't even have a TV or a computer (other than at work) at the time.  I spent that whole year working constantly and it's all a blur and a huge blind spot for me. 

 

I think most here were probably heavily involved in politics long before I was - even now I'm not as involved as many people. I think it was around 2002 or 2003 that I started following politics more, as I just hated the debate over Iraq and how people were being blacklisted for even questioning the need to go to war. And the anti-gay stuff kicked up in 2003, with so many states as well as the government, mostly for vote-getting reasons, pushing and passing laws that would ban any legal contracts between same-sex/unmarried couples. Meanwhile the media would repeatedly print articles like, "President Bush has many gay friends and doesn't hate anyone," just to make sure we remembered how statesmanlike he was even as he endorsed hate. 

 

There were also ads against Democrats back then that would literally put them on the screen with Osama and Sadamm, and they would win. They'd be rewarded for this type of bile.

 

I don't mean to overplay that era to try to make today sound better - it's not - but I do wonder what would have happened if the bottom hadn't fallen out for Bush, Rove and the GOP in 2005 and 2006. 

 

(that led to the GOP we have now, so if anything similar happens this year I dread to think what GOP we'll get next)

The Bush years were horrid but then so were the Reagan years. People who scream about how a muslim registry would be anti American forget we had one under Bush even though he played nice and went to that Mosque after 9/11. Trump is only worse because he can't pretend to try and be Beltway normal and he's incompetent as are so many of the people working with him. I also think Pence as disgusting as he is is mild compared to Cheney who is walking evil and actually smart. The ICE abuses have as we now see been going on for years.  What Trump has done is ripped the band-aide off so it's now exposed to all.  People who talk about going back to normal, what is that? When all of the things happening today were still happening but with more polished competent evil doers in place?

As the saying goes, one man's normal is another man's WTF'ery.

5 hours ago, JaneAusten said:

The Bush years were horrid but then so were the Reagan years. People who scream about how a muslim registry would be anti American forget we had one under Bush even though he played nice and went to that Mosque after 9/11. Trump is only worse because he can't pretend to try and be Beltway normal and he's incompetent as are so many of the people working with him. I also think Pence as disgusting as he is is mild compared to Cheney who is walking evil and actually smart. The ICE abuses have as we now see been going on for years.  What Trump has done is ripped the band-aide off so it's now exposed to all.  People who talk about going back to normal, what is that? When all of the things happening today were still happening but with more polished competent evil doers in place?

I think there is more to it than that.  Look at the rise in hate crime, we had Nazi's marching in the street with a wink and a nod from our President. They way he has gone after immigrants and closed the door to refugees. Every politician lies, but he has taken it to a level that I don't think we've ever seen before and people choose to swallow it, just to stay in power. The travel bans, the attacks on the press, the "jokes" about being president for life.

 

ICE has been up to no good for along time as some of these reports show, but he's given them carte blanche now. Look at the way they are rounding people up who haven't even committed a criminal offense on a level that certainly wasn't happening under Obama, even though he deported a lot of people. 

 

Maybe in the end the good times were the outlier and the bad stuff is what's normal when it comes to America. I can't argue with that given our history. Oh and Dick Cheney, I have to agree with you there. Thank God he is not part of Trump's team. We are very lucky that he's not smart and he's alienated the smart people who were with him.

This is the kind of thing I find so bizarre. It's the policy of his administration.

 

Just saw a video where Nicole Wallace refused to read Trump tweets because he lies so much.

 

 

MSNBC's Wallace pulled the plug on validating Trump's lies https://t.co/Kai823ikX2

— Raw Story (@RawStory) May 25, 2018

I'm really starting to believe that the best way to handle Trump and his followers is not to debunk their ridiculous claims, but to contain them.  Just...you know...circle around them and cut off their bloodlines as best as possible.

 

Because, as we've said before on NUMEROUS occasions, the facts no longer matter to these people.  They know what they know and they're comfortable with that.

Edited May 26, 20187 yr by Khan

2 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Just saw a video where Nicole Wallace refused to read Trump tweets because he lies so much.

 

 

but she, along with Mika & Joe and the majority pushed these very same lies in the run up. now none of them act like they should take any responsibility for their part in this mess. 

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/watch-noblesville-shooting-survivors-protest-nra-recruiters-set-tent-following-friday-school-attack/

Lord.