Besides the shower scene (and that's only cuz it cut back and forth) where exactly do you think Mark's vision for OLTL has homoeroticism? Just curious--not disagreeing. I certainly saw more of it under the campy Gary Tomlin/Broderick/Whitesall era (when of course they originally were gonna have a thing for Seth and Rex that was dropped)

Bell did listen to fans on some occasions--after killing off a baby on Days he was so moved by the upset it caused he vowed never to kill another child on his shows--soemthing he didn't do till Y&R in the 90s--for example. but I do agree with you overall--although I presonally don't think ROn has as clear a vision as you do--I don't think he's quite figured it out

....and the most riveting. Tell me a storyline in daytime right now that has more intrigue, rooted in history, edgy, controversial, has build up and has the anticipation of a huge climax (when Marty gets her memory back). I currently watch 7 out of the 8 (GL is the 1 soap I'm not watching) soaps and this is the best storyline in daytime right now. JMO of course.

I only watch soaps sporadically but I don't think any of them would have any s/l that I woud find riveting. IA that this is probably the most controversial.

I still don't think this is an appropriate s/l for a soap since the writing is not strong enough to support the sensitivity and because of the length of time it's taking to tell whatever story they're ultimately going to tell...if indeed something is really going to come out of this. Maybe years ago when people (for the most part) were watching soaps without giving them much thought, this would work. Now it presents somewhat of a moral dilemma in does a viewer want to see an amnesiac mentally raped by her rapist day in and day out over a long period of time and it might make some people feel bad subsonsciously for seeming to support when their reasons for watching may be to see some other characters.

I was able to sit through a movie about how a family dealt with a father touching his daughter inappropriately. As disturbing as the subject matter was, the thing that compelled me to keep watching was that it dealt with the perspective of the three major parties involved: the daughter, the mother and the father and the pain it all caused. That's not the kind of direction that's going to come from this because the viewer basically has to create in his/her mind what Todd's intent is and because Todd is going to have to move on to his next bad deed, the conclusion is not going to be that satisfactory, if at all.

For this type of story to work on a soap, Todd would have to have a confidant in which he is sharing his feelings and explaining what he's doing and why he's doing it. There's no room for that since it is written that he is an accessory to what Tess is doing to Natalie.

I don't know it to be true but even if the writing on this soap is better than any of the others, I don't think that means the writing is good. It just means that soap writing is bad across the board, imo.

Even though I think TSJ and SH work well together, it's not enough to justify this story. I would have preferred something where their two characters are stuck together and they're both forced to work together to save themselves and in the process they have powerful confrontations about the past. That way they avoid the total ick factor of what's currently taking place.

I have not because I still see alot of good potential things in the show. Did Ron veer off course after June with Mendorra and 1968 storyline, absolutely. All good writers have had bad plots. I see this Todd/Marty story going to have major effects, this is not Marty but once she founds out all hell breaks loose. I think this will tie in with other stories on the canvas to make it a big umbrella storyline. Ron has played smart with this by slowly building it. I think Tea's return will coincide with all this. The Tess storyline has been campy but I have enjoyed so far. There are some good stuff and potential on the show. Also everyone keeps pointing to Michael Malone as OLTL's hero. Actually a big big reason Malone's first tenure was so good was because of Josh Griffith. Griffith was great for OLTL. I would love to see him return as a co-head writer with RC or promote Carolyn Culliton. Culliton was so good as Sheffer's co-head writer. In fact Sheffer has stated he did not have a clue how to write a soap opera when he started on ATWT and Culliton was his mentor. She taught him everything about soap opera writing.

In fact Sheffer has stated he did not have a clue how to write a soap opera when he started on ATWT and Culliton was his mentor. She taught him everything about soap opera writing.

That's not really true, but... Has some elements that are actual.

Besides the shower scene (and that's only cuz it cut back and forth) where exactly do you think Mark's vision for OLTL has homoeroticism? Just curious--not disagreeing. I certainly saw more of it under the campy Gary Tomlin/Broderick/Whitesall era (when of course they originally were gonna have a thing for Seth and Rex that was dropped)

Bell did listen to fans on some occasions--after killing off a baby on Days he was so moved by the upset it caused he vowed never to kill another child on his shows--soemthing he didn't do till Y&R in the 90s--for example. but I do agree with you overall--although I presonally don't think ROn has as clear a vision as you do--I don't think he's quite figured it out

The show IS homoerotic , but I probably am not sure who is responsible. This is a joint outcome of (a) more eye candy than most plus ( more camp than most (certainly, since Passions went off the air).

Now, the eye candy feature is endemic to all soaps, but if you count the number of shirtless appearances by actors, right now, the order is ROUGHLY:

OLTL

GH (Greg Vaughan esp)

Days (James Scott esp)

B&B (Kyle Lowder esp)

Y&R

AMC

GL

ATWT

I could probably even back that up (but please don't make me).

On OLTL, the eye candy that is REGULARLY featured shirtless:

DAVID VICKERS (see below; I know he is not there all the time...but he is the #1 gayest thing about OLTL...which is not a bad thing!)

Brody

Rex

Christian

Antonio

Jared

Todd

Marko (is that his name?)

Now, it is not only the NUMBER of men, and the NUMBER of appearances, but it is HOW they are scripted. Brody seems to spend 50% of his time in short boxer briefs. Rex spends a lot of time that way too...and his stripping scene (during Snoop Dogg) was...emblematic. And then, does David Vickers ever wear clothes . It is also HOW they are photographed. The LINGERING shots of Rex's ass and Brody on that sofa with his mountain-thighs... I really don't think they do that for the ladies . But what do I know?

Then we have the camp factor. Again, more than any other show

Tina

Tess

Carlo (and his breathy lust for Christian)

Mendorra (including that bed scene)

DORIAN DORIAN DORIAN

all those women in 1968...every one of 'em

and...let us never forget...DAVID VICKERS.

David Vickers defines the core gay axis of this show. I realize his is not "core", but he IS "iconic". I read somewhere that he is playing "gay as a straight man", and that feels perfectly right.

I wish David Vickers were on every day, shirtless .

I feel that this is going after the same gay male and 12-17 year old girl audience that Passions sought. Moreover, if you look at those 12-17 numbers, I think they are succeeding. It is a tiny audience, but they are apparently coveted.

There was a campy summer, but most of those stories are gone. And frankly I find Days and B&B, to name two, much campier. There's still some camp and quite a bit of humor, but RC's had humor all along and still told serious-minded stories in the past year. I don't think the show resembles PSSNS at all right now.

Yeah, all storylines resolved too quickly this summer (Mendorra and 1968 besides LOL). I think that was the major issue.

Considering how the networks across the board, in daytime and primetime, seem to think the audience has short attentions spans and cannot stand lengthy s/l's, perhaps it wasn't RC's fault.

Anyways, I see a glimmer of hope, considering how RC isn't rushing through Todd and Marty, nor is he rushing through Tess, Christian in Columbia, or Clint trying to get BE back. So, I think he may be on the right track, even though he stumbled a bit this summer.

I still remember when Maria first came on to Y&R and we went through the period of NOTHING HAPPENING!!!!! LOL, but with Hogan and the others, she's been able to write some really good stuff since the middle of the summer. I think the same should apply to RC, especially since May sweeps were STELLAR.

It's not as if he's totally incompetent. And, who knows, maybe the crapfest of the summer will lead to great stuff.

There was a campy summer, but most of those stories are gone. And frankly I find Days and B&B, to name two, much campier. There's still some camp and quite a bit of humor, but RC's had humor all along and still told serious-minded stories in the past year. I don't think the show resembles PSSNS at all right now.

I think camp implies humor...but I know what you mean.

OLTL is ENTERTAINING and often (intentionally) funny. Mendorra (for me) especially provoked eye rolls (not a good thing), but otherwise it seemed to me like the show was delivering intentional camp.

B&B is campy, BUT NOT IN A GOOD WAY. And NOT IN A HUMOROUS WAY. Demon Storm, Taylor sleeping with Rick, foot washing...all campy, but none done with humor and all provoking MAJOR cringe responses.

I can't comment on Days (not watching), but Stephano is definitely that kind of over-the-top character. When he is done with love-to-hate humor, I'll bet that can be fun.

Anyways, I see a glimmer of hope, considering how RC isn't rushing through Todd and Marty, nor is he rushing through Tess, Christian in Columbia, or Clint trying to get BE back. So, I think he may be on the right track, even though he stumbled a bit this summer.

I think it's essential to know what stories should take time and what shouldn't. Todd and Marty shouldn't take this long since whatever fallout there is from it is going to be superficial, i.e., they are never going to deal with how sick what Todd is doing is or have any sort of meaningful period of time where he comes to grips with what he did. At best, he may acknowledge it was wrong but somehow have a justification for it and he's on to the next Todd thing to do. Getting beaten up by John and/or Cole is nothing.

Tess' revenge does not have to be rushed but this Natalie hostage part does need to be over quickly. There are two women and men imprisoned on this show. It's overkill. There may be more purpose to making Cristian's imprisonment play out over time if they're going to delve into Carlo's motivations and as long as there is some depth to the story.

Clint and the BE thing seems to be adequately paced.

(Toups @ Sep 23 2008, 05:27 PM)

....and the most riveting. Tell me a storyline in daytime right now that has more intrigue, rooted in history, edgy, controversial, has build up and has the anticipation of a huge climax (when Marty gets her memory back). I currently watch 7 out of the 8 (GL is the 1 soap I'm not watching) soaps and this is the best storyline in daytime right now. JMO of course.

I don't see it that way. I see it as a slap in the face to history and destroying a core character (that would be Todd) in order to play up some cheap thrills. I watched for YEARS AND YEARS as Todd and Marty come to terms with their past and got to a point where they could co-exist, even though they could never take back what happened, even if both wanted to. I saw year after year Todd know he could never make up for what he did, no matter how hard he tried, and BAM all of that good storytelling is GONE, why, because Ron the HACK had to revisit a story that was perfection the way it was. I don't care that Marty doesn't remember...I remember and TODD remembers. It isn't about Marty's discomfort, it is about MINE and it isn't the sorta discomfort I felt while watching the spring fling rape all those years ago, it is the sorta discomfort that screams...EWWWW, get off my screen, turn it off or turn the channel. I am glad you are enjoying this story, but please stop acting like this is some sorta brilliant story idea. It is a BAD idea, and the ratings reflect it, and please spare me the "the ratings are bad all over", if you deliver a good product, people will watch, but the fact that people who put up with Higley's crap turn off when Ron's stuff started airing in the hundreds of thousands of viewers show how bad he truly is, if you could handle Higley but couldn't handle Ron, then what does that say for Ron. Ron isn't better or worse then Higley, he is the same in just a different package.

but please stop acting like this is some sorta brilliant story idea.

I'm sorry but I won't. I think it's brilliant and will continue to say so.

If you think it sucks, continue to say so. I ain't going to stop you.

if you deliver a good product, people will watch,

Some great shows do get low ratings. I enjoy a lot of shows that get low ratings. Ratings don't translate into quality for me.

Some great shows do get low ratings. I enjoy a lot of shows that get low ratings. Ratings don't translate into quality for me.

So then how do you gauge quality? It has to be more then just someone's opinion. Whether you agree with the process or not, ratings is what it used to gauge success. If OLTL has a good ratings week, and you liked it, do you say "well ratings don't matter"? Yes the ratings system is flawed, but like with everything, you have to have something to use as a guide to see if someone is doing a good job or not. As the ratings have gone down, it appears so has viewer satisfaction, as there seem to be more disgruntled posts regarding quality.

So then how do you gauge quality? It has to be more then just someone's opinion.

quality for me = what entertains me the most

Whether you agree with the process or not, ratings is what it used to gauge success.

I guess so. You can say a show can be "unsuccessful" for the network suits, but it can be "successful" for you as a viewer......and vice versa of course.

If OLTL has a good ratings week, and you liked it, do you say "well ratings don't matter"?

Sure of course if I like a show and it does well in the ratings, I'll be happy. If it gets low ratings, I'll be a little worried because it could mean the show won't get renewed or there will be behind-the-scene changes.

Yes the ratings system is flawed, but like with everything, you have to have something to use as a guide to see if someone is doing a good job or not.

Good job = entertaining me

So for those who really enjoyed Ryan's Hope, Claire Labine didn't do a good job because the show was usually in the bottom half of the ratings? Or the Dobsons never did a good job on Santa Barbara? Or Mitchell Hurwitz never did a good job on Arrested Development?

So for those who really enjoyed Ryan's Hope, Claire Labine didn't go a good job because the show was usually in the bottom half of the ratings? Or the Dobsons never did a good job on Santa Barbara? Or Mitchell Hurwitz never did a good job on Arrested Development?

Great post Toups!

Good job = entertaining me

Well then Ron is a FAILURE because I am not entertained. The problem with thinking that YOU are the only one that matters is that YOU being happy isn't going to pay the bills and pay anyones salary. You can have critical success without having viewer success, but at the moment Ron doesn't have either. So how do you distinguish the great God of daytime that is Ron from the horrible Higley's of the world? Well Toups is happy, so it doesn't matter how low our ratings sink? Ya think Frons is going to say that at the next budget meeting? There is more to success than just what makes you happy (unless you suddenly become a few hundred thousand nielsen families). So I guess OLTL should have more money to spend, becuase you like it, to hell with the ratings.

QUOTE

If OLTL has a good ratings week, and you liked it, do you say "well ratings don't matter"?

Sure of course if I like a show and it does well in the ratings, I'll be happy. If it gets low ratings, I'll be a little worried because it could mean the show won't get renewed or there will be behind-the-scene changes. TL has a good ratings week, and you liked it, do you say "well ratings don't matter"?

Sure of course if I like a show and it does well in the ratings, I'll be happy. If it gets low ratings, I'll be a little worried because it could mean the show won't get renewed or there will be behind-the-scene changes.

Oh, so ratings only matter when YOU like what the ratings are...I get it now.