KNOTS LANDING

[DRW50]

I'm not sure if Ginger's past was more fabricated than Karen's or Laura's. All we knew about Laura was that Richard resented her father, and that her mother had died young. We knew Karen was an activist and that Sid had been married before. Laura was, on paper, the most undeveloped character when the show started. It's one of the reasons I don't love a lot of her first season stories, where things just sort of happen to her or she reacts to things happening to Richard. Constance McCashin is a much better actress than Kim Lankford, but part of Laura's success was they did try to show her character grow.

I never said I would write Lillimae out permanently - I would have kept her as a recurring guest. I don't think it's as much about who is the better actress, because it's about the character's role on the canvas. Nicolette Sheridan is, IMO, a weak actress, but she was wonderful within the range KL gave her once Paige got out of the brooding daughter role.

I just didn't think that Lillimae hovering over Val, babying her, and snapping at Gary/Abby/etc. brought drama. I thought it stifled Val and kept her from having more of a voice of her own. I'm not saying that Lillimae was a huge drag on the show, or that the writing issues with Val were her fault, but I think that Lillimae should have come and gone. They could still have stories like Chip, and Josh, with some breaks. It was the day-to-day existence of Lillimae on the cul-de-sac which didn't work for me.

[DRW50]

As for "fake," I meant mostly in the whole musical instrument playing, happy-face stuff, covering a self-righteous persona. I kind of just wanted someone to smack her at those moments.

[YRBB]

We knew more than just that about Laura; for example, the fact that her mother's death forced her to become a substitute mother, a substitute wife... and we saw how that affected her life afterwards.

In any case, I don't mean to get bogged down in details. It wouldn't make sense to create lists and see which one is longer lol The point of the matter is, regardless of the past (because that is PLOT, most of the time) what mattered to me was character, a distinction which is not always as clear as should be. And what we saw of Karen and Laura was much more precise and well written than Ginger. From the very beginning, there was nothing undeveloped about Laura; I don't know where that came from!

Again, as to liking the stories or not, it's personal taste. I've heard people say they hated the first three seasons. Go figure. I happened to think that Laura's stuff was great in Season 1 (and The Lie remains my favorite of them all).

To me, that doesn't make much of a difference. One would be in the credits, the other would not. The lesser actress being the one in the credits. But, since this is about the character's role on the canvas, it was very clear that Ginger's wasn't very fitting. I have never, not once, missed her since she left. Even when she was a regular character, she would disappear and even the characters on the show didn't seem to mind or notice! There was no void by her not being around. On the contrary, on the occasional episode where Lilimae doesn't show up, I always wonder where she is, why wasn't she shown?

You described some of the reasons why I loved Lilimae's existence so much. She was making up for lost time and she had nothing better to do lol Why is that bad? That sounds like so many families I know. If she stifled Val's voice, it was great character writing. And the Chip/Josh stories could not have been done without her being permanently around. Especially Chip. She was instrumental in that. As for her day-to-day existence.... most never seemed to mind. But let's agree to disagree on that!

I agree--it was all a persona! Even more reasons to love her. So realistic, so true to life. I wanted to smack her too. But that ain't a bad thing!

[DRW50]

I know what you mean, but I put that down to bad writing more than her character's irrelevance. In later years the show often seemed to ignore the Laura/Val friendship (aside from a little towards Laura's last season or so), but I never felt like this meant the friendship wasn't important.

It's not bad in terms of being a mother, just in terms of drama (for me). I much preferred the damaged relationship they had in Lillimae's first visit. To me, that was the peak of the character. When she came back regularly and they had to save her from the con man, or whatever, it was never the same for me. I think there was too much baggage for Val to ever truly get over the past.

I haven't watched that episode in years, but it was never one which jumped out at me. I mostly didn't care for the episodes about Laura being weak and victimized. I know that was a part of her, but I preferred her wit, and her complexity.

[juppiter]

I have to agree with Carl that they didn't really try -- you are right that Ginger got a standalone episode like the other ladies but there are also a whole bunch of episodes that Kenny and Ginger aren't even in -- episodes 2 and 3 of season 1 for example. So I don't think they really did try that hard to make it work, though it is weird that they lasted all the way to season 4. Season 4 was by far the best season for Kenny/Ginger but I still think it's OK to cut them.

As for Cathy, she never seemed like a character. I agree with Carl, she never truly worked on the level that Ciji did. She was there as an excuse to have Lisa Hartman sing. Which is OK because Lisa Hartman had star power and helped the show get ratings, but Cathy was never really a character.

Edited June 2, 2012 by juppiter

[juppiter]

So losing Kenny and Ginger to me was no big tragedy even tho Kim Lankford seems like a lovely person -- but what do you guys think about Richard? To me Richard was a fascinating character and John Pleshette was an amazing actor. I don't know how Richard would have fit in in the "new" Knots Landing but it kind of sucks that he was written out after season 4.

Laura managed to stay relevant in season 5, but in 6-9 I don't really think she was. She was a definite "B" character in those. In season 5 she doesn't drive the story but she still plays an integral role connecting the characters (e.g. to Karen -- "Was that before or after you started taking pills?" -- Karen is an awful friend to Laura in season 5 despite the later BFFs rewrite.) Had Richard stayed around it would have been interesting to track Laura/Richard's alternate paths after their divorce. IMO, Richard was a loser, but abandoning his sons is just something I could never quite buy. Richard could be an awful person, but he could also be incredibly loving to his family even when he was holding them at gun point.

I feel like the Laura/Richard storyline still had miles to go. I would have wanted them to stay divorced but there were still things that they had to say to each other about their marriage. There were still more storyline options for Laura had Richard stuck around. Richard leaving after s4 was the true tragedy.

[juppiter]

Val flatlined in season 11 for me -- as a matter of fact KL flatlined in 11 for me. In season 10 she had the Jill storyline which I LOVE. It is all so ridiculous and over-the-top but season 10 in general is a strong season; the only one where the Lechowicks' vision for Knots truly meshed for me. Gary not caring whatsoever but being forced into a mess by two psychotic women was just pure soapy shlock that worked for me. In season 11 Val forgets the last ten years and becomes a vapid doormat for Danny and his mullet.

[DRW50]

I think Richard left at the right time. His character was so heavily tied to Laura, and their story had come to an end - the sense of shame he felt when he realized just how much better Laura was than him and that Laura would never allow herself to be rid of him, was an incredible exit. I do agree that he wouldn't have left his kids, but he was a very weak man.

John Pleshette was probably the best actor on the show, and I did miss that.

I felt like the show gave up on Laura once she married Greg, which is a shame, as she was still a fascinating character. Greg was never the same without her - he became very one-dimensional.

What was season 11 about? Is that the one where Mack kept screaming DIRTY COP DIRTY COP? Between that and Amanda's friend, I wasn't overly impressed, although I loved Linda.

[Chris B]

John Pleshette was brilliant and his arc ended so well. I do think he could've worked in the later years, but not the glamourous middle years. I'd have enjoyed a pairing with Richard and Robin Strasser's Dianne, who was foolishly overlooked as the Abby replacement. I found comical Anne to be a total bore, I only liked Anne when she originally arrived as a darker character, or her more serious turn in the final season.

Funny yall are asking about season 11 because that's the season I'm watching right now. I also believe it was the season John Pleshette was fired by Lynn Marie Latham and her hubby for criticising one of their scripts lol. I've always found it to be a boring season, but re-watching it and it's very well written. The show is very domestic again, but it works. I like Sumner Group and all the recurring characters like Bob, Mort and Harvey. They've done a great job transitioning Michael into an adult character, Linda is amazing and Paige is maturing as a reasonable speed. I like that they brought in Tom instead of having Paige pine away for Greg. A major downside is keeping Paula and putting her with Greg. She was such a dull character!

As yall mentioned, Sally's Friend was a bit tiresome, but I found Penny Peyser to be a good actress and re-watching it the story isn't bad at all. The problem I have is that Val had been dumbed down and victimized so much at this point that the story can't work. As a Val fan it's insulting. I don't recall her doing anything last season after the rush-wrapped up the Jill story and to throw her into ANOTHER Crazy Val story is just stupid. But looking at it objectively it's not a bad story.

Mack's story didn't bother me either. I wish it was Lilimae instead of Aunt Ginny, but I do enjoy Mack and Frank (and soon having Tom involved) in their work stories. I loved everything about Karen's talk show, which gave us Robin Strasser as Dianne. I just can't understand how they didn't cast her full-time. She was the PERFECT foil for Karen, which is what they needed when replacing Abby. Claudia was friends with Karen so that didn't work, Anne was a joke so that couldn't work either and Linda was too young. As a result we ended up with Karen winning constantly, being nosey and preaching at everyone.

[DRW50]

I think the show had a lot of women in that age group so they may not have seen a need for Robin. I do think she did a nice job, although I never felt like the role was worth expanding. Then again, I think Karen needed someone who could be an equal to her and call her out, and unfortunately, given how much power Michelle Lee had as time went on, I don't think that would happen (even Abby stopped being that character in her last years).

I did not like Tom at all. I thought he was smarmy and I hate that faux-whisper acting. I also hated his hair.

I liked Paula. I think that she was an LML character inserted into the show, and that meant she was OK on her own, but was not a fit. They seemed to do this at Y&R, with characters like Tammy Lauren's Maggie, who was great, but never integrated. I think Paula just wasn't right for that time.

I thought the corporate stuff was a lot of fun at this time - was this the season where Mack was with the blow-up doll? I liked the goofy guys at work, whatever their names were.

I also remember this season for the brilliant sequences where Greg's daughter returned, and was quickly murdered. Stacy Galina was incredible as Mary Catherine - she was never as good as Kate, but I can see why they wanted to bring her back. This story was by far Greg's best after Laura died. I still have those sad scenes in my head where he went to spend time with Meg after Mary Catherine died. I never forgave Knots for taking Meg from him

[DRW50]

As for Anne, I never minded comic Anne. I loved her bitchy and at times tender relationship with Paige - they both hid behind quips, and sex appeal. Anne was so sexy and sleek, yet also vulnerable and funny. The only time I disliked Anne's storylines was when she had to hang around that horribly annoying fat man who was a fixture on TV at that time. I think he disappeared without a trace once the show went on hiatus. No big loss. I also felt like her last few years of stories were kind of depressing, as she was never going to have a chance with Greg, and I just thought she became a little too serious. Her rivalry with Claudia felt like filler, and Claudia never should have been kept on the show after she killed her own son.

Edited June 2, 2012 by CarlD2

[DRW50]

I'm reminded of when season 8 started, and Doug Sheehan, who had always had a nicely balanced selection of shots in the credits, suddenly had far more scowling/angry/yelling shots. I thought, "This can't be good," and sure enough, it was a complete mess and depressing storyline which sent him off the show (this on top of that Ben/Cathy mess). The whole thing still annoys me, years later.

BEN WAS TOO BEAUTIFUL FOR KNOTS LANDING!!!

For me, when he left, he took most of Val with him. You are so lucky I don't write Knots fic as it would be Ben/Val, Gary/Abby, no substitutes - I don't think the show worked near as well without those combos.

I never stopped missing the scene near the end of the credits which is from the montage in the episode where Abby has to decide about giving Diana a kidney - a wonderful episode, and one of the best montages ever.

Edited June 2, 2012 by CarlD2

[DRW50]

[YRBB]

Kenny and Ginger lasting all the way till Season 4 is a sign that they at least were trying to keep the characters (and actors) around, even if it was in a limited capacity. But, in any case, it was always clear to me that they saw the writing on the wall where those two were concerned. I'm REALLY thankful that we didn't have continuous huge storylines focused on them just to make it work--like I've said before, we get that all the time in soaps now and it's one of the reasons why they're ruined--because it just would not have happened.

Oh, I don't think anyone claimed she worked better than Ciji! God, no. Cathy was and always would be a replacement.

Richard was probably my favorite character in the early seasons; so complex and portrayed by the best actor on the show. However, I understood why he was written out. I don't think he was a very good fit for a lot of the Dunne years and his story seemed to have reached an end. It was just the character, who he was, it would be impossible to bend him in a way to make him fit. Plus, they already had their hands full with doing that for Laura.

I agree, I would have loved to see what Richard would do after his divorce but their marriage was dead and I don't see any sense in them continuing to discuss it. At some point, it would have become too much of a good thing. It was painful to see him go but I think his story concluded wonderfully.

[DRW50]

I was always a little surprised that when Richard returned, he seemed happy, settled, with a new family - I thought in some ways this was such a bitter pill to swallow, as Laura fought so hard under his thumb and died young. But Pleshette always made me feel sorry for Richard, so I didn't mind as much as I would have in most circumstances. I guess his being close to the show even after leaving the role of Richard helped create a positive return, instead of something like crashing the funeral drunk and ruining everything (I guess that was Mack's job).

I do think it might have been a nice touch if he visited Karen in one of the last episodes, and got to meet Meg.