What is he supposed to say when interviewed about his stories? "They suck and nobody should watch them?" Number one, IMO most of them don't and number two, that's just unlikely. Why don't we roast every other HW for daring to do fall previews as well?

A good place for him to start would be a little bit of humility. Him telling viewers what they should like or dislike is not hyping his story. What he said was that he didn't understand why viewers were unhappy. He in effect said too bad you don't like it. It's Ron joining the ranks of Brian Frons in arguing that he must educate viewers on what is good and bad in storytelling. Perhaps he should allow viewers to educate him every now and again.

Edited September 10, 200817 yr by Jess

I disagree.

So... How exactly did you prove Jack and me wrong? And how does your post tie into our posts?

I disagree. One must also judge a product by context. We can act like soaps are not under enormous corporate control, but that would be...ostrich like.

I am not saying that the "camp" is not part of Carlivati's creative vision....but I also don't doubt that the "homage to the 80s" and the "make it high camp" mandates also came from above.

The camp and all the awfulness is totally RC. Its obvious. He pimped it out, its what he wanted. Fronz can be blamed for a lot.. but this? Well he egst blame for letting it go on but...

Week after week, Toups reminds us that OLTL is tops in a very young demographic (the former Passions demographic). I scarcely think that is an accident. Many of us feel this is a silly audience to pursue (because they will be fickle, not like the old days). Nonetheless, this is clearly a direct consequence of the camp.

And where did that demo get Passions?

the ax. twice in fact.

But let's look at it from a whole different perspective. Let's say the camp IS Carlivati's creative vision...AT LEAST HE HAS ONE!!!

so... Guza's vision is murder murder murder. and fans hate iut.. but at least he has one?

LML has a vision to.. to hack away at a show everyw ay possable... but it was good because she had a vision?

Having a vision is nice. However having a bad vision that turns off a lot of fans is not a good thing.

If I have eight rosebushes, standing in a rown, I am going to lavish particular attention to the one with the greatest signs of strength and the nicest blooms. It may not be perfect...but I've got to nurture the good in what I have.

I agree, however what soap is in the best condition is all up to each person watching. But then againj just look how fast the OLTL threads went from 20+ pages to... 2. That says a lot.

It's not only RC. His producers, writers, directors, and actors are doing a disservice as well. Even when OLTL was good, rarely did I ever find a connection between the writing and the acting (going all the way back to Nash's hollow death). Everybody spouts there lines, but there is no underlying emotion behind the performances that make me feel for the characters, or the overall story. However, that is mostly the younger crowd.

Funny how I never heard any of you say these things when the show was being hailed regularly. No, it's all Monday morning quarterbacking. As far as I was concerned, the vision and long-term planning for all the characters was there on the screen. There is no way things in November, January, May could've played out as they did without the intricate planning that set each story up over months of work. Now, things are more of a jumble and less organized, but I can't find fault with much of what was done until July. Which was...two months ago. So you'll forgive me if I don't see it as hard evidence of anything.

It's easy to say "oh, I was never affected by Viki and Charlie, or Nash's death, or Natalie and Jared or Marcie and Tommy, blah blah blah"...well, that's very nice for you. But if you look at a huge amount of fans online, they were. Do you discount them?

Edited September 10, 200817 yr by Vee

What is he supposed to say when interviewed about his stories? "They suck and nobody should watch them?" Number one, IMO most of them don't and number two, that's just unlikely. Why don't we roast every other HW for daring to do fall previews as well?

Of course he's supposed to promote his stories and present them as "good". My point is he's not producing art, for art's sake, or for the artist's sake. He's producing a product to be "sold" commercially! He's responsible for producing commercial success. I may have missed where people are roasting him for what he said about his stories, all I've seen is that some aren't pleased with what he's writing! For me, it's a mixed bag. More bad than good right now, and although I respect that he's taken risks, I am just not enjoying the show overall right now. I seem improvement and hope he gets back on tract -- which of course means I hope he starts writing for ME (as in rhinohide, NOT Michael Easton) again.

And while that is an absolutely beautiful picture of Melissa Archer (why doesn't she look like that all the time?), I must say I never want to see Easton again.

A good place for him to start would be a little bit of humility. Him telling viewers what they should like or dislike is not hyping his story. What he said was that he didn't understand why viewers were unhappy. He in effect said too bad you don't like it. It's Ron joining the ranks of Brian Frons in arguing that he must educate viewers on what is good and bad in storytelling. Perhaps he should allow viewers to educate him every now and again.

I don't see him being arrogant or professing not to care what the viewers think. Saying you don't understand somebody's POV is an admission of your own shortcomings IMO. And if you don't understand what the problem is, you can't take corrective action so you have little choice but to forge ahead. That's not an indication that he doesn't care what the audience thinks/wants, he just doesn't have an alternative. It may be a disconnect, but it's not deliberate disregard or thoughtless inconsideration.

Furthermore, most posters haven't come out and said "I thought Ron was so good, now I realize I was wrong." We're mostly talking about how much we enjoyed his writing up to a point and we still think that was good and he did a great job, but something changed and we're no longer enjoying his stories the way we did at first. We're all just trying to figure out what changed and why and if there is any indication that the stories are turning in a way that will make us enjoy the show again the way we were. I don't know about everybody else, but I see signs of improvement, so I still have hope.

And while that is an absolutely beautiful picture of Melissa Archer (why doesn't she look like that all the time?), I must say I never want to see Easton again.

LOL! I have no idea. Each time I see her in person I am amazed anew at how stunningly beautiful she is. The camera simply does not do her justice. As for Easton, I adore him and wish him success beyond his wildest dreams in his writing career, so that he may devote himself completely to his first love of writing. You have my word, I will spare you his image in MY avatar.

Wow, OMG OLTL has gone campy! Someone cancel the show already! Ron Carlivati has destroyed it with his attempt to balance the show with humor and psychological drama. He's such a hack for that.

Camp is horrible, it’s worst than...

...having a woman in her 50, who suffered from menopause, become pregnant because cancer drugs made her fertile...

….or getting rid of all the sets on your show and trying to be like The Hills.

….making your anniversary show an episode of “This Old House”

...centering the show around one character, and that one character being a contract killer

...destroying each and every character on the show

...centering a show around four people

...glorifying the mob

Like oh my gawd people OLTL is so horrible right now!

.

.

.

.

.

At least OLTL is the closest thing we have right now that resembles a soap next to Y&R, and a very damn good one at that IMO.

So damn Ron for bringing back the OLTL we know and many have loved over the years. Damn him!

Pssh wake me up Viki becomes pregnant.

Funny how I never heard any of you say these things when the show was being hailed regularly. No, it's all Monday morning quarterbacking. As far as I was concerned, the vision and long-term planning for all the characters was there on the screen. There is no way things in November, January, May could've played out as they did without the intricate planning that set each story up over months of work. Now, things are more of a jumble and less organized, but I can't find fault with much of what was done until July. Which was...two months ago. So you'll forgive me if I don't see it as hard evidence of anything.

It's easy to say "oh, I was never affected by Viki and Charlie, or Nash's death, or Natalie and Jared or Marcie and Tommy, blah blah blah"...well, that's very nice for you. But if you look at a huge amount of fans online, they were. Do you discount them?

Actually, various people did.

No i do not discount them. But this debate isnt about WAS he at one time good. Is he NOW? Just going off the discussion threads i would say no.

Wow, OMG OLTL has gone campy! Someone cancel the show already! Ron Carlivati has destroyed it with his attempt to balance the show with humor and psychological drama. He's such a hack for that.

Camp is horrible, it’s worst than...

...having a woman in her 50, who suffered from menopause, become pregnant because cancer drugs made her fertile...

….or getting rid of all the sets on your show and trying to be like The Hills.

….making your anniversary show an episode of “This Old House”

...centering the show around one character, and that one character being a contract killer

...destroying each and every character on the show

...centering a show around four people

...glorifying the mob

Like oh my gawd people OLTL is so horrible right now!

.

.

.

.

.

At least OLTL is the closest thing we have right now that resembles a soap next to Y&R, and a very damn good one at that IMO.

So damn Ron for bringing back the OLTL we know and many have loved over the years. Damn him!

Pssh wake me up Viki becomes pregnant.

LOL! I don't know if anyone is arguing that it's the worst soap on screen now. I am not paying that much attention. But it could be like comparing turnip greens to brussel sprouts (neither is my favorite) vs. comparing chocolate to icecream. If you don't like any of your choices saying one is better than the other isn't necessarily affirmation of how good it is.

Actually he's supposed to write stories that appeal to a broad audience and makes huge quantites of people want to tune in. Getting all caught up in thinking "Oh! I am being so clever and creative and bold. I really love what I am writing here." doesn't not equate to commercial success. Doesn't mean his stories are bad just because not so many people like them. Maybe we just don't "get it". But ultimately, he needs to please his audience.

All he can do to satisfy that job requirement is write stories he thinks are good and hope he finds an audience. If he doesn't, the show should replace him. The other way to approach the job would be to do the ABC approach of focus group, let the audience tell you in advance who and what they want to see, and basically write the story the audience plotted out for you. In my opinion this always makes for craptacular soaps. While everyone and their sister might have brilliant ideas for Marcie and Nigel on the run, RC may just not see the potential there and only do a fair to middling attempt trying to appease people with something he has no affinity for.

All he can do to satisfy that job requirement is write stories he thinks are good and hope he finds an audience. If he doesn't, the show should replace him. The other way to approach the job would be to do the ABC approach of focus group, let the audience tell you in advance who and what they want to see, and basically write the story the audience plotted out for you. In my opinion this always makes for craptacular soaps. While everyone and their sister might have brilliant ideas for Marcie and Nigel on the run, RC may just not see the potential there and only do a fair to middling attempt trying to appease people with something he has no affinity for.

I don't think we're really disagreeing. Of course he must write what he believes are good stories. Give his best effort based upon his beliefs about what the audience will enjoy. What he can't do is say "I personally would like to see "this" so I am going to write it, and hope that the audience enjoys it." He can't write specifically what pleases him from his own subjective viewpoint.

OLTL is not a movie or a play that will succeed or fail based on a limited run. THIS IS OUR SOAP. It's remained our soap through multiple head writers, executive producers, characters that have come and gone and returned again. We've always been here and they have to write the show to please us with all our divergent perspectives and demands.

Funny how I never heard any of you say these things when the show was being hailed regularly.

I agree with nearly everything else you've said in this thread, but... People surely did--I know cuz it drove me crazy (ie as soon as people praise this new HW people come in "Give him another 6 months to actually prove something" bla bla) Even some of the current reaction strikes me from *some* as a bit of a "told you so"

MichaelGL your post made me laugh-and is true. To an extent. I still think fans have every right to complain abotu a show turning exceedingly campy when what they enjoyed about it a few months ago was lack of camp. Yes soaps always have outrageous plot twists and some are awful, and being primarily campy may seem a small offence--and one I don't mind all that much--but I can see why others do